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Posted on 21 May 12 at 18:54 |
Vorpal Smilodon has just submitted some Game Info for Gauntlet:
Sub Genre change from Hack & Slash to Shoot 'em up
Vorpal Smilodon said:Does it count as a Hack n Slash instead of a Shoot'em Up because the enemies don't shoot? I kind of thought of the ghosts and other monsters themselves as the bullets to dodge and shoot |
Last post: 27 Nov 12 at 23:39
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Posted on 23 May 12 at 23:55 |
| This game was one of the first H&S games around. Shmups don't have things like mazes to navigate or challenges to master. This genre will stay as it is. Thank you for your submission. |
Last post: 13 May at 21:02
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Posted on 18 June 12 at 21:26 |
| The Shoot'em Up doesn't only contain SHMUPS, it also contains Twin-Stick Shooters and things like MicroBot which in fact does have levels that require navigation. Though I suppose Gauntlet is older than analog sticks, I don't see in it any of the gameplay elements common in Hack'n'Slash titles. |
Last post: Today at 05:10
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Posted on 19 June 12 at 08:33 |
| We do! Please do not misinterpret hardware and software limitations of the time for gameplay elements. Also, please do not attribute genres by such concepts as "Twin-Stick" Shooters. We consciously don't use these concepts and if you do you will always miss the point of our genre system. Please reread the genre document and forget everything else about genres you know! |
Last post: 13 May at 21:02
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Posted on 19 June 12 at 13:28, Edited on 19 June 12 at 13:31 by Vorpal Smilodon |
Hack & Slash - Hack & Slash games usually feature a lone or a small group of characters who need to defeat large numbers of enemies, usually using melee weapons.What about the complete lack of melee weapons? Even the warrior uses throwing axes...
In other threads I've been told that Hack'n'Slash games require attack combos to be considered such.
I can understand if the lack of enemy fire means that no, it's not a Shoot'em Up, but I don't see how it's a Hack'n'Slash just because you fight a lot of enemies. You fight a lot of enemies in the majority of games with combat. |
Last post: Today at 05:10
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Posted on 19 June 12 at 16:52 |
| The word would be "typically" or "usually" require combo attacks. Also, melee weapons are not required for a game to be considered H&S. Again, your arsenal of weapons is not a gameplay element. |
Last post: 13 May at 21:02
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Posted on 19 June 12 at 18:30 |
| If you break it down to "Hack & Slash games usually feature a lone or a small group of characters who need to defeat large numbers of enemies" the genre definition doesn't have much meaning. All the games in the Shoot'em Up genre feature a lone or small group of characters who need to defeat large numbers of enemies for instance. Iron Man 1 and 2 feature a lone character that... etc. Not trying to be annoying, but I don't get it. |
Last post: Today at 05:10
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Posted on 19 June 12 at 20:56 |
At this point, I don't know what to tell you. I have reworded and explained it, I have pointed out where your classification process went wrong and highlighted some differences.
The last point I can make is that you desperately try to fit games into a genre you can see them in. For example, Gauntlet is for you a Shoot 'em Up, no matter what we say. You will draw comparisons and try to ridicule the definition to make a point. Why not do what we suggested, look at the gameplay elements objectively, without bias?
I know it is not easy which is why we sometimes get it wrong. We are also aware of the fact that we cannot cater to everyone's genre concepts. If these words could still not satisfy your curiosity and solve your problems, I'd ask you to, maybe, just accept our decision. I can assure you that if we are indeed wrong, somebody else will undoubtedly speak up! |
Last post: 13 May at 21:02
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Posted on 20 June 12 at 00:19, Edited on 20 June 12 at 00:27 by Vorpal Smilodon |
Epsilon Theta said:At this point, I don't know what to tell you. I have reworded and explained it, I have pointed out where your classification process went wrong and highlighted some differences.I was just looking for you to give some of the reasons the team listed this as a Hack'n'Slash so I could understand. If you re-read your posts you might notice you haven't actually explained why it fits that genre, just said that I was 'wrong' when I asked for clarification. Even when I first posted I wasn't 100% sure it should be a SHMUP I just wanted to discuss the matter because I thought it shared some SHMUP qualities as you spend the majority of the game attempting to dodge enemies. Will said SHMUPs don't have mazes, but as far as I recall Hack'n'Slash games don't have mazes either. After our discussion so far I now fel like it would fit best under [No Sub-Genre] but I'm still not sure why the team labelled it as a Hack'n'Slash in the first place.
Specifically when I said I didn't see any hack'n'Slash elements all you replied with was "We Do!"
I also don't understand your arguments that the game should be considered a hack'n'slash because it would have been one if it had been made when consoles were more powerful. Obviously the game was made as is, and it has to be viewed as it plays, not how it was intended to have turned out. The developers have called Bioshock an RPG, but obviously their intentions don't keep it from being a FPS. They did make sequels eventually and I'd be arguing about them being considered Hack'n'Slash games if any of them were on the 360. |
Last post: Today at 05:10
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Posted on 20 June 12 at 10:33 |
| Your argument for the change was the use of weaponry which we explained. Our dismissal was based on your assumption being wrong and hence the submission having no argument to back it up. Am I understanding this correctly that you submitted a change which was rejected and therefore want to know why the game is classified as is in the first place? |
Last post: 13 May at 21:02
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Posted on 20 June 12 at 13:20, Edited on 21 June 12 at 14:07 by Vorpal Smilodon |
 That's exactly what I meant, yeah.
edit: I've been thinking about it, and if the type of attack doesn't matter shouldn't a game like Zombie Apocalypse be in the Hack'n'Slash subgenre? The entirety of the game is mowing down swarms of enemies, and only one of the dozen different kinds of enemies shoots anything for the player to dodge.
further edit:
Your argument for the change was the use of weaponry which we explained.my initial argument was that the enemies in Gauntlet throw themselves at you like bullets that you need to dodge and shoot, which I understood to be Shoot'em Up gameplay.
You will draw comparisons and try to ridicule the definition to make a point. Why not do what we suggested, look at the gameplay elements objectively, without bias?And I'm not trying to ridicule the definition of the genre, I'm just pointing out it doesn't actually say much to explain how a hack'n'slash game is different from other games.
The last point I can make is that you desperately try to fit games into a genre you can see them in. For example, Gauntlet is for you a Shoot 'em Up, no matter what we say.I certainly don't care what genre a game is in - I just want to understand why a game fits into the genre it is in. Gauntlet as a Hack'n'Slash is something I don't understand when other games with similar elements are classified as Shoot'em Ups. I'm not comparing - I look at the the gameplay elements in Gauntlet such as avoiding being hit by enemies that try to run into you. You collect powerups that can be used to wipe all enemies off the screen but you can only hold a certain amount and lose them at death, something else common to Shoot'em Up games. Other gameplay elements like collecting keys to open doors and exploring the game level fit better under Action-Adventure, but I didn't think they were significant enough to put the game in that genre. And yes, you do kill a lot of enemies, but you cannot hit more than one at once or do any sort of combination attack or juggling or block which I thought (but honestly might be wrong about) I thought that sort of attack was required of Hack'n'Slash titles when looking at the examples of "Ninja Gaiden II, Devil May Cry 4, Dynasty Warriors 7" |
Last post: Today at 05:10
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Posted on 22 June 12 at 09:20 |
Games like Zombie Apocalypse are Shoot 'em Up because that is what you need to do. Navigating the environment or finding keys is not part of the game but they sometimes feature in H&S games. Call them "light puzzles" if you will. You are right about the "dodge" gameplay mechanics but you take bits and pieces and throw them around like a leper. Try to accumulate them and get the big picture please.
Vorpal Smilodon said:[...] Gauntlet as a Hack'n'Slash is something I don't understand when other games with similar elements are classified as Shoot'em Ups. I'm not comparing - I look at the the gameplay elements in Gauntlet such as avoiding being hit by enemies that try to run into you. You collect powerups that can be used to wipe all enemies off the screen but you can only hold a certain amount and lose them at death, something else common to Shoot'em Up games. Other gameplay elements like collecting keys to open doors and exploring the game level fit better under Action-Adventure, but I didn't think they were significant enough to put the game in that genre.[...]But they are which is what we are trying to tell you. The gameplay elements you deemed as not important are actually quite important. Often, when playing Gauntlet, I have specifically not opened a door until later or looked for ways around it. I have "paused" the action to go and seek alternatives in the Maze. This is something you cannot do in Shoot 'em Ups. |
Last post: 13 May at 21:02
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Posted on 22 June 12 at 13:30 |
Thank you for the detailed response! Two things:
One, is that I'm still interested in why you feel Gauntlet is a Hack'n'Slash. I certainly see why it's not a Shoot'em Up, but it's still a game where you explore and fight your way through a series of dungeons, collecting keys and bombs and weapon upgrades.
Two, a quick follow-up question: how do your arguments track with Shoot'em Up games where you're free to travel around large areas freely, avoiding the action to restock and heal up or bypassing a particular group of enemies? Is the "unstoppable assault, unending shooting" required for Shoot'em Up games? (I'm asking in relation to my current thoughts on MicroBot and Renegade Ops) |
Last post: Today at 05:10
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Posted on 25 June 12 at 12:30 |
Because of my perspective on the game. Your subjective perspective leads you to a different genre, that is fine. An example; Assassin's Creed is about running around jumping from rooftop to rooftop on a mission to eradicate all Templars. Depending on how you sell a game, the subjective perspective can change. There is no gain associated with you knowing my personal view and hence I will omit it.
Mostly, yes. but exceptions apply and sometimes you can bypass enemies or run away, hide, etc. As I said before, look at the big picture. |