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Last post: Today at 11:39
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:05 |
Help us to decide how to run TA
Hi all
I have an important message from the TrueAchievements Investigations Manager.
Due to the amount of abuse that they could receive from disgruntled cheaters, their gamertag is kept hidden.
He/she would like to get some feedback on possible changes to the way we handle cheaters on the site. Please note, this message is quite long, but if you care about the topic I'd ask that you read it all. You will learn much about how the team work, as well as hopefully having some input into handling things in the future.
Thanks
TA
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Greetings TrueAchievements community!
I am the manager of the Investigations Team here on TA and I'd like to share with you some ideas about how we intend to change the way we handle cheated tags on TA. I urge that anyone who wants to weigh in on this discussion read the entire post first. The most important thing to remember is that we aren’t changing how we find cheaters, what we call cheating, or our conditions for removal from TA.
First a little background just in case you don’t know what my team does. We are charged with upholding the Cheat Policy here on TA. This means we actively look for cheaters among the TA crowd. We do not look for people who use in-game cheat codes, boost, or exploit bugs in games (like score errors in Quake 4 or AI pathing issues in World at War Zombies). I hesitate to explain too much about what we do look for but a good example is an “online only” achievement that is unlocked offline. In most cases the team only acts on accounts that have overwhelming proof of cheating. The team keeps records of game glitches like how disconnecting from LIVE during a Halo Wars match will award the win offline.
One of the problems we face as a community is that our gamertags persist through all of our ups and downs. Some people get frustrated with a game and unfortunately resort to cheating. Accounts may be hijacked and hacked while out of your control. Some gamers are still young and must share their console/gamertag with a sibling who decides to cheat. Please note I’m not saying that any of these reasons allow you to skirt past the team, just that they do happen. However most gamers (if not reset by Microsoft) will continue to use that gamertag not thinking about the consequences it might have on their TA account. The Investigations Team is charged with protecting the validity of TA ratios (and thus TA score). Regardless of the reason that a card has cheated games on it, the team must take action on these accounts to protect the ratios.
The investigations team has never really had anything more than two options with these accounts. The first option would be to allow the cheated gamertag to stay on TA and the second would be to stop their tracking altogether. The TA community has made it pretty clear that they don’t want cheated tags messing with TA ratios and leaderboards, so we’ve always been forced to remove the tag from the TA scanners. We only do that if the tag crosses a threshold that the team finds is beyond reasonable doubt. Unfortunately this means that hundreds of legitimately played games are also sometimes removed from TA along with the cheated games on that player's card.
Removing someone from the TA scanners is nearly the same as being exiled. They lose all ability to track what they are playing and to join sessions. Friend feeds stagnate as no one can see what they are playing. Additionally if someone who has 100 games on their card is removed for three cheated games, TA loses all the data on the other 97 games. This has a similar effect to having a cheater counted to begin with, the ratio isn’t “true” since it is either missing data or including data it shouldn’t. We also lose things like new solutions, votes, reviews, and blogs from people that are removed. As the community shrinks we have less people who are willing to boost games with us, or participate in the crazy 1,000 people online at the same time events. We’ve unfortunately had the displeasure of removing fairly active members from the scanners several times. It’s never an easy decision but it’s one we must make daily.
Even though the TA community has made it clear that they want cheaters removed, we’ve seen people rally support behind a TA user that they think is being removed unfairly. Please understand that we take removals very seriously. We do not remove people based on simple suspicion of cheating; we only remove based on the evidence available on their gamercard. I’m not saying that we don’t ever make mistakes. We do (although rarely) reverse our decision. The point here is that if someone says they are being unfairly targeted by the team, it is very likely that there is at least one cheated game on their card. Would you prefer this person (who you thought would never cheat) be removed from TA or would you rather see them be given a second chance?
Now you have a basic idea of what we are currently doing. Here are some ideas that we are kicking around and planning on implementing in the near future. While our team is not normally very transparent, we believe that these changes are important enough to be announced ahead of time. We don’t want anyone to think that we are trying to do something sneaky or to help hide cheaters on TA. The rules for using these new tools have not yet been finalized, but rest assured that egregious cheaters will not be given a second chance.
Gamerscore Only Tracking : The most common defense submitted to the team (other than “I didn’t do it!”) is “Ok, I did it before I joined the site. I don’t care about the leaderboards, can I still have my stuff tracked? I’m not cheating anymore and love this site!”. We’ve mulled over this idea and think it’s worth pursuing. The idea here would be a gamertag could be switched to GS only tracking. They could monitor what achievements they have unlocked but would no longer have a TA score. Their achievements would not factor in to the TA ratios and they wouldn’t place on TA leaderboards either. However they could still join boosting sessions and would still have friend feeds listing things that they have recently achieved with GS instead of TA.
Partial Tracking : We posted a poll about this not too long ago. The only real results were that most of the community doesn’t understand how the investigation team functions. Many people voiced that TA should “continue to stop tracking all cheaters” however that isn’t at all how it works right now. When we find a gamer that has only cheated one game, we don’t remove them unless they have obtained achievements that are deemed unobtainable. There are several games on TA that would be considered commonly cheated such as Gears of War, Crackdown, and Perfect Dark Zero. Many people who have cheated one of these games haven’t ever cheated anything else, and based on our current rules get to stay on TA. For those of you that like stats. TA currently has over 150 gamertags that have cheated “Seriously…” from Gears of War. The majority of these accounts don’t have any other games that have been cheated (believe me, we’ve looked).
The proposed change to the system would allow us to remove games from a TA gamercard. We obviously can’t change the actual gamercard, so we’d just remove the game from their list on TA. This would allow the game to return to its proper ratio and the user to continue to use the site as normal. Accounts that were given this privilege would be marked on the site as having games removed from their TA account. Again this option would not be used for egregious cheaters. We hesitate to put a firm number on the amount of games we would be willing to hide, but it is unlikely that we would ever hide more than two games from a card except in a special circumstance.
Neither of these systems mean that TA will stop removing cheaters. The ability to switch to GS only tracking will be conditional based on the amount of cheated games on someone’s card. The site doesn’t benefit from someone who has dozens of cheated games and thus we will not allow egregious cheaters or someone who is still actively cheating to be moved to GS tracking. Additionally if we remove games from someone’s TA card and then find that they have cheated additional games they will either be moved to GS only tracking or removed from the trackers completely.
Before we start getting posts that say “BAN ALL CHEATERS” let’s recap some of the important points.
• We do not remove people from the TA scanner for one cheated game (outside of unobtainable achievements). If you are in support of TA being “cheater free”, you should be in support of the investigations team to remove a game from someone’s card. Removing people from TA for one cheated game is not up for debate and posts that suggest it will be ignored.
• Egregious cheaters will not be tolerated on TA under any circumstances.
• Removed games and GS Only accounts will not factor in to ratios. This is no different than them being completely removed except that they are still able to use the site and contribute to the community.
For the most part, TA’s definition of cheating is the same as Microsoft’s:
• Boosting and In-game cheat codes are not examples of cheating.
• Profile Editing and Game Saving are examples of cheating.
All gamers who have had games or TA score removed from the site by the investigations team will be noted on their gamer page. This isn't to embarrass the gamer in question but to instead explain why their GS is different from Xbox.com or why they don't have a TA score. Additionally the public will be able to see which games were removed from your TA card.
We take a lot of pride in the job we do here and want to make sure we are staying in line with what the majority of the community wants (protecting the ratios). However as the size of the site continues to climb we need additional tools to make the job of finding and dealing with cheated tags a bit easier. These changes will allow us to be much more effective in finding and processing cheated tags.
I now invite you to discuss the changes in the thread below. I will be reading every post to this thread (as will most of the rest of the team) and compiling your ideas and concerns. We take the community’s reaction to this news very seriously. We’d like some constructive feedback but must insist that the conversation not degrade in to:
• What is cheating? If it’s something MS would reset you for TA considers it cheating too.
• Saying that all cheaters (even those with only one game) should be removed from TA. This is simply not an option. |
Last post: Yesterday at 19:24
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:16 |
| A great letter here guys, very informative. Thanks for sharing. |
@ei8htyei8ht
http://ei8htyei8ht.com |
Last post: 21 Nov 12 at 12:30
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:16 |
| Cool. I've seen some people in TA who got the COMMUNITY RACEDAY 2 Achievement In NFS Pro Street While They Were Offline. |
SLN2012 |
Last post: 05 Jul 12 at 18:48
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:17 |
| I Like the idea of gs only tracking good idea. |
Last post: Yesterday at 16:43
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:17, Edited on 12 June 12 at 13:18 by Riconoclast |
Get rid of blatant cheaters (the ones who finish 100+ hour games in a day) but give everyone else about 10 strikes for things so you don't ban anyone by accident.
Not that I'm particularly fussed but if you want to keep your leaderboards 'legit' you might want to make sure that people sharing accounts don't show up on them. |
Last post: Today at 06:58
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:18, Edited on 12 June 12 at 13:19 by Teh Paralyzer |
Seems fine to me.
Profile editors and Game Savers are the only true cheaters so unless it's that people need to stay laying off the cheater claim.
One thing to remember is that some games have glitches to earn online achievements online (example .skate.) |
Last post: Today at 00:23
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:22, Edited on 12 June 12 at 13:22 by RedDeadKBII |
| 3 strike rule makes sense to me. |
Last post: 30 Sep 12 at 11:46
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:22 |
| Yeah this just happened to me...hence my new gamertag...my old gamertag got phished and hacked and while that person hacked my account he decided to mess around with the achievements and messed everything up for me. TA caught on about 2 months ago and since labeled me and cheater...I had 163k gamerscore 83% completion and 120 games completed...but there's nothing I, Xbox or anyone could do.. I just got f.d by some random hacking nerd lol. But talked to Xbox and they said hopefully here soon in the future maybe... MAYBE.. they'll have a gamercard tool. But that's a big what if. |
Last post: 22 May at 06:09
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:22 |
I would say that removing games that are cheated on from a gamer's profile is a nice procedure. It keeps the games as 'true' as possible and allows people to 'change their life'  |
" they told me the classics never go out of style, but they do, they do " |
Last post: 11 Apr at 19:30
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:22 |
GS tracking only is a great idea. Contributions to other areas of the site can still come in but the actual TA data doesn't skew as a result.
Hiding certain games on cheater tags isn't a bad idea, either. |
Last post: 29 Jan at 07:49
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:23 |
It's great that you inspect people, but there are some things that *will* look like cheating, when they're not.
An example would be my achievements in Mercenaries 2 (found here: NokkonWud's achievements in Mercenaries 2: World in Flames)
You'll see some achievements aren't popped that were story related and another achievement for completing the game. You'll also around 2-3 online achievements that were popped offline. This was a glitch where the game locked up for about 30 seconds, then came back and popped 20+ achievements at once (these are the ones popped offline after my last 'online' achievement.)
Another example, and one that got flagged recently, was a Friend of mine, W1DGET (W1DGET) who lost his account briefly due to the Fifa 12 hack, but continued playing games offline and when he was able to sign back in courtesy of Xbox Support several achievements popped at the same time (I've had the same happen in the past when I lost Internet connection.)
It's a noble thing and I'm glad you do it, but it's not as straight forward as it seems. |
http://www.twitter.com/NokkonWud |
Last post: 14 May at 19:41
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:24 |
| What has been said makes sense to me, people have to be given a second chance but if they do mess up constantly then it should be time to send them packing. |
Last post: 22 May at 14:23
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:24, Edited on 12 June 12 at 13:28 by Ergo Me Smart |
Part of me was surprised to see that 150 gamers who have cheated 'Seriously...' are still on the site, but really it shouldn't. The site always used to run a '3 Strikes' policy (although it's rumoured that this is not longer the case), and if they only cheated that one achievement in the one game, then it's clear they haven't broken the 3 Strikes or whatever the current rule for 'too much cheating' is now.
Personally, I actually like both suggested ideas for different levels of cheaters. If someone has only cheated one or two achievements/games, then just remove those games from their profile. After all, if you're 99.99% legit then it seems fair to only give a 'minor' punishment while keeping the site stats accurate. Then, if you're caught out cheating more than 2 achievements/games but less than the level of 'Egregious cheating', then make it so their profile is GamerScore only. That way, there is no risk of their cheating affecting any ratio.
Of course, the question many people are going to ask is 'If your caught cheating and a game is removed from your profile, how this affect your completion percentage?'.
NokkonWud said:It's great that you inspect people, but there are some things that *will* look like cheating, when they're not.
An example would be my achievements in Mercenaries 2 (found here: NokkonWud's achievements in Mercenaries 2: World in Flames)
You'll see some achievements aren't popped that were story related and another achievement for completing the game. You'll also around 2-3 online achievements that were popped offline. This was a glitch where the game locked up for about 30 seconds, then came back and popped 20+ achievements at once (these are the ones popped offline after my last 'online' achievement.)
Another example, and one that got flagged recently, was a Friend of mine, W1DGET (W1DGET) who lost his account briefly due to the Fifa 12 hack, but continued playing games offline and when he was able to sign back in courtesy of Xbox Support several achievements popped at the same time (I've had the same happen in the past when I lost Internet connection.)
It's a noble thing and I'm glad you do it, but it's not as straight forward as it seems.I wouldn't worry about that. I'm pretty certain that's quite a well known glitch, similar to those found in FIFA 10 and 11. |
http://www.indietheory.com/ - Discover some of my indie game reviews at Indie Theory! |
Last post: 14 May at 13:26
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:26 |
| I am still of the mindset that says 'get rid of all cheaters' but the partial ban / gs only tracking sounds really appealing. |
Come on 80% !!!!!!!
The new dashboard sux!!!!!! |
Last post: 26 Apr at 14:03
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:27 |
| Interesting ideas. The Zap a Cheated Game is interesting, but how many times will you zap one game before you just kill the tag? Some clearer definitions of cheating vs. exploiting in game issues would be helpful on the Cheat Policy page. Maybe take a couple of well known exploits, explain them and why one is cheating and one is not cheating. Otherwise, keep up the good work! |
Last post: Today at 11:01
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:27 |
| I think time maybe is a factor here. If someone cheated on a game 3-4 yrs ago, then just remove that game. If it is recent then maybe gamerscore tracking only is the way to go. I imagine each case is different so it must be hard to have rules for all. But I think both the ideas, about gamerscore only tracking, and removing games, are good ones. |
Last post: 20 May at 08:52
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:27 |
I imagine this subject provokes many different reponses and i appreciate the investigations team must have a very tough time managing the whole situation.
Personally i think the whole 'gamer' needs to be looked at. For me TA is more than an achievement tracking site, its a varied community of people from around the world. For instance I enjoy reading peoples blogs/status updates about the daily lives. Taking this into account i would like the 'gamer' to be investigated on his/hers input into the community i.e post number, solutions, walkthroughs e.t.c. as well as the initial reason why they are being investigated. If someone was an avid cheater i dont think their input to the site as a whole would be that much therefore reflected by their posts/solutions e.t.c.
I appreciate its a very hard subject to get a common consensus on but i think we need to look at the wider picture |
Last post: 25 Jun 12 at 13:28
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:28 |
I would be more in favor of the switch to just Gamerscore tracking.
While I agree with your comments on "we want a true set of ratios", unless everyone who has ever had or has a tag joins here, we will never reach that 'optimum" ratio we want. With that in mind, hesitating to remove someone from the TA tracking because of that still seems a little counter-intuitive to me.
For the people who cheated before the site, yes, removing those games from their tracking would be a good compromise.
After you've joined the site, though, I would be more in favor of dropping them to Gamerscore only status.
(Any extra questions or comments, feel free to drop a PM.) |
Last post: 15 May at 06:34
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:29 |
It's fine that new members should get a free pass, but any examples of cheating after joining should be dealt with under the normal rules and all cheated achievements from before they joined should not be counted on the trackers.
Any prolific cheaters should be downgraded to GS only, except those who cheat and glitch acheivements for other people without their consent, such as boosting lobbies that auto-unlock achievements for all in the lobby. They should be removed altogether. As you say, the smaller the community the less people to play with and get help from. So if someone gets their achievements by cheating but doesn't affect anyone else's GS or ratio by doing so, let them stay on to post solutions, join sessions etc. Maybe even set up a karma card whereby they can be re-tracked but only after a set period of non-cheating and only after getting X amount of positive feedback. This may encourage some to help out more. The obscurer or older the game and the less people willing to boost could earn more Karma to get you back in the trackers (minus your cheated achievements) a little sooner. |
Last post: 22 May at 19:30
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Posted on 12 June 12 at 13:30 |
"The proposed change to the system would allow us to remove games from a TA gamercard. We obviously can’t change the actual gamercard, so we’d just remove the game from their list on TA. This would allow the game to return to its proper ratio and the user to continue to use the site as normal. Accounts that were given this privilege would be marked on the site as having games removed from their TA account. Again this option would not be used for egregious cheaters. We hesitate to put a firm number on the amount of games we would be willing to hide, but it is unlikely that we would ever hide more than two games from a card except in a special circumstance"
Any who cheats a SINGLE achievement should be 0 TA'd. Like it was stated many times on the poll, you're either a cheater or you're not. Introducing partial cheating will encourage gamers to think "meh, it's only 1 achievement - what's the chances I get caught? And even if I do, who cares if ONE game is removed from my TA?"
I like the tracking by gamerscore only idea, however. Cheaters should be 0 TA'd and then given the option to do this, whether it be 1 or 100 achievements they've cheated.
Being more 'reasonable' and forgiving with cheaters allows them room to cheat - Microsoft certainly don't take into consideration "Oh, it's just 1 achievement.. we'll just reset them for that game" - because at the end of the day, cheating is cheating.
I really do hope the partial cheating system isn't introduced, it's very disappointing that it is even being considered. It would be a lot harder to track 1 cheated achievement than whole games, because as I said above - this system could potentially provoke more people to cheat if they think they can get away with 1 achievement, with the worst punishment being one game removed from their TA card.
I know there are MANY users on TA that agree with me, I just hope they come out and voice their opinions here today and this 'change' is revised. :\ |