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Voting. Solutions. Few ideas to crush!

  • tornprince2012tornprince20121,324,196
    Posted on 25 January 15 at 18:06, Edited on 25 January 15 at 18:31 by tornprince2012
    Hi everyone!

    Have a great week, first of all!
    I am writing this idea I got after reading more than forty pages of different threads and poles about votes, solutions, badges and what not.

    I know that this issue was not just addressed but chewed over the few past years. And still, I am interested to bring this idea, in a very detailed form to see how people will react to it and what they will think of it. Of course, as you can see in the title, I have no high hopes since I understood through my few last threads that most of people try to "keep as it is and not to change a thing" ( if this is your take, don't bother to respond, would you kindly? ). My grasp on this is very simple - if it works as close to perfect, leave it; but if it can be changed to benefit everyone - why not?

    Hope that Rich will find a minute and scroll through this too, there are a lot of technical issues here. I do understand as a default that we are not going to force comments on negative votes and not going to remove negative votes because this is something that Rich ( and many others! ) see as a necessary feature on TA.

    This came to me after endless votes, after a lot of reading, as said above and feeling that things can be better here, for users and authors together. I do rage from experiencing unprovoked troll attack but I feel bad no less when I see good people abandon solution writing because of those too ( hey, Sasha! )

    So, here it goes...Please read everything before you respond, crush it or bring any improvements (which are more than welcomed). This will look a bit algorithmic just because my thoughts go far ahead of my fingers and I don't want to skip any detail. And remember that all of these are just my thoughts. Hold on!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    First of all, changing the voting system. The closest comparing I can give you is IMDB rating style ( or, for that matters, our game rating system ). Range - from 0.5 stars to full 5 stars. This will change positive-negative meaning BUT not cancel them. People will understand ( I hope ) that if some solution has 2.5 stars, it's probably worse than other that has 4.2 stars.

    Key points here would be :
    - start counting average rating after X number of votes ( 3,5,10 question mark );
    - putting overall number of people that voted on that solution ( X stars according to rating of Y people );
    - of course, the highest rated solution will stay at the top ( rating vs people average computing );
    - every rating stays anonymous;
    - badges stay the same ( important to people ), colors according to range of rating ( let's say 0.5-3; 3-4 and 4-5 ).

    Result : satisfying both systems. People won't go crazy about seeing negatives ( psychologically speaking ) and Rich will still be able to let people evaluate solutions right way.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Second thing : making solutions look like achievement list, for example :
    Achievement ABC in game D has 4 solutions -
    Solution by E - rated 4.8 stars by 132 people
    Solution by F - rated 4.1 stars by 26 people
    Solution by G - rated 4.6 stars by 12 people.

    Key points :
    - people can see the number of people and rating already on the achievement page;
    - if the order above is unaccepted, it may be moved to the solution page but instead of showing only the top solution members will be able to see solutions list with ratings;
    - nothing changes ( reporting, solution guidelines etc. )
    - maybe as an option dual viewing system - either every solution separately or button (settings, NOT default ) that will allow you to see today's system - as a list of every solution detailed, not to show only top solution.

    Please, remember, we're not writing solutions for dick-measuring but to help others ( I truly still believe that ), so if someone will decide to check solution that rated 4.8 from 15 people as oppose 4.5 from 80 people - let him do that without going through "positive-negative" routine. As people always say here - the best one will make it way to the top.

    Result : one - finally people that wrote solution later then others ( pre-pre-order gamers, another country that doesn't get the game immediately etc. ) will be seen instead of staying as solution number 3 that is hidden on the bottom of the page by default (!) and two - this part of the site will look more clean and in better order.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And the last one - negative voting and comments! I understand that getting negatives psychologically can disappoint or totally discourage people from writing solutions, which can be a huge loss for this community. So while we taking them by a different approach with a rating system, that does not mean that authors will automatically get perfect score on each of their solutions.

    Taking in mind three things - encouraging to rate, commenting on solutions and non-forcing way to do that, these are key points for this part :
    - above the solution will be a rating and a number of people who rated it;
    - under the solution is an option to comment AND rate ( more people will rate something that will help/already helped them - just because a lot of us lazy to scroll through the solution and rate ( vote today ) it;
    - as an option, the prompt to rate can stay in the upper right corner ( instead of previous point or as another place to rate for better convenience );
    - once rated below, let's say 3 stars ( or other ), the page will reload itself with a little window that will ask the rating member what he didn't like in solution - this can be ignored and not to work as a pop-up window ( no to pop-up blockers );
    - that window will state that the comment is ANONYMOUS, so that people will still have the balls to explain why they didn't like something in that particular solution and stay hidden from the wraith of authors who go and hunt others' solutions for voting negative on theirs;
    - authors, and authors only will get a private message with a comments from that negative rating member with an explanation and an option to make the solution better;
    - the above can be switched off in settings for those who don't want to deal with it ( I was sure that some people will say that they are against this BUT it's practically the same PM you get when someone comments on your solution );
    - once the solution is edited, the rating member will get a PM ( changeable in settings? ) that will let him know that the solution was edited and he is welcome to revisit it.

    Well, I hope not a detail was lost in the explanation above.

    Result : nobody is forced to do anything; more people see the rating option after they have read the solution ( and not before : a better call for an action ); more comments because of the prompt to comment and stay anonymous; higher chance for the authors to edit and make their solution better.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My brain is boiling now, and still I feel that I forgot something. Anyway, I do understand that this will take a lot of coding and technical work, if someone had any doubt. I do. Despite it, I believe that this change ( in any variation ) will make this site better, our community happier and friendlier. Am I making up words now?

    Happy to hear your thoughts, whatever they may be.
  • SpilnerSpilner1,148,358
    Posted on 25 January 15 at 18:17
    tl;dr Leave things how they are, an inperfect system that works... gawd.
  • Posted on 25 January 15 at 19:28
    A sliding scale works perfectly in works of art, such as film and games. There can be good things, bad things and people will enjoy it in different ways.

    A solution either works or it doesn't. There's no sliding scale.
    kawaii in the streets but senpai in the sheets
  • Posted on 26 January 15 at 04:32
    You're introducing a whole new host of issues and complaints with a sliding scale.

    People will now complain when they don't get perfect 5.0 on all their solutions and will demand comments for anything below that. You also introduce some skewing on what people believe should be a 5.0 solution versus, let's say a 4.0 solution.

    Keeping it simple, up or down, keeps a lot of issues at bay.

    Finally if you feel that you are the victim of someone trolling your solutions, please don't hesitate to PM a mod or admin about the issue.
    This space for rent.
  • Posted on 26 January 15 at 04:51
    TyrannoJesusRex said:
    A sliding scale works perfectly in works of art, such as film and games. There can be good things, bad things and people will enjoy it in different ways.

    A solution either works or it doesn't. There's no sliding scale.
    I'm going to have to disagree with that for 2 reasons. 1: What works for one person may not work for another, and 2: Sometimes a Solution is good enough to get you 75% of the way there but it's missing the one thing to put you over the top. For Example:

    Dead Space (2008)Secret AchievementThe Secret Achievement achievement in Dead Space (2008) worth 24 pointsContinue playing to unlock this secret achievement


    The top Solution for this achievement is great, and I voted it positive. However if I had the option I would have given it 3-3.5 out of 5 stars because while helpful it was lacking the one tip I needed to get the achievement. That particular tip was buried about 30 comments down in the comment section.

    I can also think of a couple times where I've had to combine 2-3 solutions from the same achievement to actually complete it and in a situation like that I would love to rate a 2.5 out 5 for both, as a way to say good but not quite good enough.
  • SpilnerSpilner1,148,358
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 04:52
    Yay new voting system, bye bye 7 years of voting cause we cant assume up - 5 and down = 0 can we, right?

    I mean some of those ups ive given could be a 3.5, they felt like a 3.5, maybe even a 4. So many choices.
  • Kerman7Kerman71,019,338
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 11:14, Edited on 26 January 15 at 11:25 by Kerman7
    Good post tornprince.
    It may sometimes look like suggestions are always torched down but it is people like you that make things move forward. You clearly have put a lot of thoughts into it and it deserves at least a good thinking and argumented replies.

    Idea 1: The concept is completely relevant. Many popular sites have chosen simple two way voting system for 'arty' content. At the same time scale rating can also apply to what may seem simply right or wrong at first (e.g. school grades).
    As both ways could work, in the end I suppose it comes down to the fact a change would have massive implication on handling past ratings. Plus technically, scales could require more storage space and this may be a consideration (this is speculation, I have no idea how things work under the hood).
    Finally, even if scaling would allow more finesse to ratings, more choice is not always good.

    Idea 2: Sounds good. Personally I have learned early on to not look at the top solution only, so my setting is to show all solutions but a summary as you propose would certainly be helpful to many people.

    Idea 3: Not much different from what exists already. The only big changes you propose is the rating process to add suggestion for anonymous comment at the same time (don't really have a view on placement of rating buttons).
    If I assume you mean those as feedback, different from regular comments and not appearing in the comments thread, it may be an idea. But may end up annoying people to have to go through another step even if they can skip it. Could still work.
    Then the second part of that proposal is the anonymous part which could help. But at the same time surely if a comment is constructive noone should be afraid to post it? (I wouldn't be afraid of trolls or bullies as assuming it would retain reporting capabilities to sort those out). But we all know we are not in such world so that suggestion isn't ridiculous.
    Anonymity would probably be a subject on its own.
  • SpilnerSpilner1,148,358
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 12:03, Edited on 26 January 15 at 12:03 by Spilner
    Kerman7 said:Good post tornprince.It would be if these suggestions hadn't been posted many, many times in the past, by other people who have had a few of their low amount of solutions downvoted once and go 'WHAT!? MY PERFECT SOLUTIONS HAVE BEEN DOWNVOTED BY ONE PERSON?! THEN THEY MUST BE TROLL VOTES AND WE NEED A NEW SYSTEM!.

    Fact is the voting 'problem' hasn't been an issue for years and there are things in place that you don't even know about or notice. As ive already said, inperfect system but it works and its no better or worse than any change that's been suggested.
  • matdanmatdan862,275
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 17:38
    Spilner said:Kerman7 said:Good post tornprince.It would be if these suggestions hadn't been posted many, many times in the past, by other people who have had a few of their low amount of solutions downvoted once and go 'WHAT!? MY PERFECT SOLUTIONS HAVE BEEN DOWNVOTED BY ONE PERSON?! THEN THEY MUST BE TROLL VOTES AND WE NEED A NEW SYSTEM!.

    Fact is the voting 'problem' hasn't been an issue for years and there are things in place that you don't even know about or notice. As ive already said, inperfect system but it works and its no better or worse than any change that's been suggested.
    Must be nice in that isolated bubble you live in.

    Personally I hate the current system, it allows solutions that are newer and more current to be buried by a 100+ up-voted solution that is full of out-date/incorrect information. More often then not the comments contain the information one needs.

    It is YOUR opinion after all (Don't go assuming that your opinion represents anyone else, you look stupid).
    Out of the abyss peer the eyes of a demon, Behold the Razgriz, its wings of black sheath!
  • SpilnerSpilner1,148,358
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 17:49
    Many new solutions ive posted well after older ones existed have risen up, whilst doesn't always happen it doesn't always not happen, not sure how a new system would change that anyway.

    Whats that last bit about, champ?
  • NomstuffNomstuff951,838
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 17:51, Edited on 26 January 15 at 17:52 by Nomstuff
    matdan12 said:Spilner said:Kerman7 said:Good post tornprince.It would be if these suggestions hadn't been posted many, many times in the past, by other people who have had a few of their low amount of solutions downvoted once and go 'WHAT!? MY PERFECT SOLUTIONS HAVE BEEN DOWNVOTED BY ONE PERSON?! THEN THEY MUST BE TROLL VOTES AND WE NEED A NEW SYSTEM!.

    Fact is the voting 'problem' hasn't been an issue for years and there are things in place that you don't even know about or notice. As ive already said, inperfect system but it works and its no better or worse than any change that's been suggested.
    Must be nice in that isolated bubble you live in.

    Personally I hate the current system, it allows solutions that are newer and more current to be buried by a 100+ up-voted solution that is full of out-date/incorrect information. More often then not the comments contain the information one needs.

    It is YOUR opinion after all (Don't go assuming that your opinion represents anyone else, you look stupid).
    And that is where you would report the solution to the RC team.
  • tornprince2012tornprince20121,324,196
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 18:03
    Addition to said above : personally, when I get to solutions page, I need to do two things in case and that specific achievement has more than one solution. I have to scroll down and see that "there are "X" more solutions to this achievement. I prefer, personally ( seems like some people have a problem with personal opinions of another people, in a very yelling-screaming form, no less ) to see a list with all the solutions and be able to decide if I want to open all of them or any specific one ( non-dependent on it being top solution ).

    As for another reference, saying that "a solution either works or it doesn't", I disagree. I used hundreds of solutions and had to tweak different things even in perfect ones, so how do I classify it?

    The point is that my three steps system represented how every aspect of solution branch on TA can be better, work smoother and make members experience better. Again, to my mind.
  • LV 1 Blue SlimeLV 1 Blue Slime1,666,547
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 19:49, Edited on 26 January 15 at 21:18 by LV 1 Blue Slime
    "People will understand ( I hope ) that if some solution has 2.5 stars, it's probably worse than other that has 4.2 stars. "

    Something with 20 positive and 20 negatives is probably worse than a solution with 20 positives and no negatives. Also, what's the difference between a solution with 4.3 stars and a solution with 4.2 stars? At best, it's just another way of presenting what we have now. It still has the same issues.

    2 - The only benefit I see from such a system is that newer solutions with better information have a better chance of reaching the top. That's great, but I don't think a complete overhaul of the system and the invalidation of every current vote is worth it. I'm behind that idea, I just don't think the amount of work that would no doubt be required is worth the return.

    3 - I'm behind having a pop up window that gives you the OPTION to give a reason for your downvote, but that's the only thing from the third section I like.
  • Posted on 26 January 15 at 20:35, Edited on 26 January 15 at 20:39 by Mobius Evalon
    KiNG CaRL 2012 said:
    TyrannoJesusRex said:
    A sliding scale works perfectly in works of art, such as film and games. There can be good things, bad things and people will enjoy it in different ways.

    A solution either works or it doesn't. There's no sliding scale.
    I'm going to have to disagree with that for 2 reasons. 1: What works for one person may not work for another, and 2: Sometimes a Solution is good enough to get you 75% of the way there but it's missing the one thing to put you over the top. For Example:

    Dead Space (2008)Secret AchievementThe Secret Achievement achievement in Dead Space (2008) worth 24 pointsContinue playing to unlock this secret achievement


    The top Solution for this achievement is great, and I voted it positive. However if I had the option I would have given it 3-3.5 out of 5 stars because while helpful it was lacking the one tip I needed to get the achievement. That particular tip was buried about 30 comments down in the comment section.
    This is the kind of thing that I would actually like a sliding scale for, because in the circumstance you're outlining where the solution provides some of the information but the most helpful bits are in the comments would be something I'd give 2 or 3 stars to. The information to complete the achievement is buried in comments and is not the solution author's property so they get no credit for it. I've skipped voting on a lot of solutions with this kind of dilemma because I refuse to give someone a upvote for information they did not provide, but the downvote seems too harsh by comparison. Much the same circumstance with someone who posts a YouTube link to RoosterTeeth or something; sure, the video outlines how to get the achievement, but the solution author gets no upvote because it's not his content but also no downvote because it still contains what I need to get the achievement.
    Supporter of unpopular opinions.
  • tornprince2012tornprince20121,324,196
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 21:12
    Another risky tweak : what about voting on comments in solutions? Or some kind of indication that this comment has a real meaning and adds a very useful information for that specific solution?

    It's not a rare thing, when the author doesn't come back to his solution ( or leaves TA for good ) and nobody else writes a new, better solution. That way that comment can help tremendously, without going through a lot of "thank you" or "didn't work for me" or "the glitch was patched" and so on.

    How about that?
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 26 January 15 at 22:29
    I prefer..If it's a good solution, vote up (even leave a comment if you're a really nice person). If it is a bad solution, report it. Why even waste your time giving a downvote because surely it is going to get deleted. How can a star rating on a solution be a good thing? If it is a flawless solution but only has an average of 3.5 stars, what will that do for someone looking for a guideor for the person who wrote the guide? Maybe no voting at all might be the better option. I understand you didn't want to hear 'I like it the way it is' but....... I really do like it the way it is.
  • LuckyKantLuckyKant1,120,086
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 22:51, Edited on 26 January 15 at 22:53 by LuckyKant
    Have to echo what Spilner, TJR and DK said however, I can support a Thumbs Up for solution comments. It would help them stick out. I can dig anonymous optional downvoting comments but I doubt see them increasing the feedback left.
    Hey Niko, its your cousin! Let's go bowling!
  • Posted on 26 January 15 at 23:19
    Some way to highlight useful comments could be good if done right.
    kawaii in the streets but senpai in the sheets
  • SpilnerSpilner1,148,358
    Posted on 26 January 15 at 23:21
    We can have threads pop up for 'troll' solutions votes AND 'troll' comment votes then laugh

    Is a good idea in a perfect world.
  • tornprince2012tornprince20121,324,196
    Posted on 27 January 15 at 00:13
    Spilner, you have been in this anti-mood since the beginning. We all understood your opinion of these ideas.
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