Genre Discussion Forum

A messageboard for all things genres

Action-Adventure

AuthorMessage
Vitiated1
1,208,654
Vitiated1
Posted on 26 November 18 at 16:41
With Action-Adventure being so general, we feel like including it alongside other genres which already imply action and adventure (Shooter, Platformer, Open World, etc) is redundant. Action-Adventure tags should be reserved for games that don't contain enough elements to meet the criteria for any other genre to avoid overloading genres and for specificity. What does the community think?
Eurydace
491,088
Eurydace
Posted on 21 June 19 at 18:13
Anyway this is a terrible idea. You should never, ever pick genres based on whether other genres apply if you want genres to have any meaning. If you think this genre has nothing to offer, delete it. I’ve said it should be deleted for years. It only exists because it always has. It’s worthless.

But don’t apply it based on whether other genres apply.
Ostrowidzki1989
Posted on 22 June 19 at 23:44
Vitiated1 said:
With Action-Adventure being so general, we feel like including it alongside other genres which already imply action and adventure (Shooter, Platformer, Open World, etc) is redundant. Action-Adventure tags should be reserved for games that don't contain enough elements to meet the criteria for any other genre to avoid overloading genres and for specificity. What does the community think?
I would really like to have a chance to have a live chat with the genre team. I have so many issues with it.

What's the point of multi genre if you want to limit them? Let's set a party chat up because I have a big problem with your classifications.
Vitiated1
1,208,654
Vitiated1
Posted on 23 June 19 at 02:01, Edited on 24 June 19 at 10:01 by Beanpotter
Hey Ostro, feel free to message me and we can set up a real-time conversation on Discord, Xbox, or TA.

Why do we "limit" the genres applied to games? We all think it makes more sense to have each genre pertain to a very clear definition of a game. Action, Adventure, and Action-Adventure all fall into categories of genres that we apply to games that don't fit into other classifications. The multi-genre system exists for games that contain multiple elements which need to be accounted for, which A-A isn't included in. For example, Far Cry 5. Its undeniably an FPS. It's also undeniably an Open World. Far Cry 3 was just listed as Open World (Sandbox at the time) under the singular genre system, but the FPS element was so overwhelming it couldn't be ignored. That's why the multi-genre system exists, not to overload and bog down every game with each small element that comprises the gameplay.
Beanpotter
928,130
Beanpotter
Posted on 24 June 19 at 10:03
Had to clean up this thread a bit. Carry on...
Play nice!
Zeh Marcoss
424,345
Zeh Marcoss
Posted on 24 June 19 at 18:34
Sorry for being so late, but I don't have the habit of keeping track of many threads on the site, and only now have I noticed the changes.

I think "Action-Adventure" is in fact a very inclusive genre, covering a wide variety of games, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I mean, maybe it's just me, but the first genre that crosses my mind when I think of a game like the Tomb Raider as an example is Action-Adventure. I see him fit much better into this broader category than in more specific genres like "Shooter" and "Plataformer."

The same goes for games like the Batman Arkham series. I see them fit much better into a more inclusive genre like "Action-Adventure" than "Stealth," "Open World," or "Beat'em Up". So why exclude it only from "Action-Adventure"?

I could keep mentioning several other games that would fit into the same situation above.

However I see no reason to maintain this genre if the goal is to restrict it so much. I mean, I see very few games falling into this "Action-Adventure" category that do not have enough elements to be classified in any other genre.

I know that you are currently working to apply the same logic to the games that fall under the "Action" and "Adventure" genres.

So I need to say, I don't care to much for leaderboards, but the way it is right now, if I filter all the games I completed by the "Action" genre with the new criteria, only #IDARB and Knight Squad are poping up, and that feels very wrong to me. Maybe that's because the changes are still going on, but I couldn't tell.

Anyway, thanks for the attention.
Eurydace
491,088
Eurydace
Posted on 24 June 19 at 21:01
The Action genre is just an orphanage. It means nothing.

Action Adventure was originally intended for, basically, games with action an a cinematic presentation (a walking sim has no action and is thus just an adventure). It’s really overly broad and nebulous, but it already existed at the time so it needed to stay. I think trying to capture that idea is worthwhile, but it should not be done under this genre banner.
Silver1337
294,816
Silver1337
Posted on 25 June 19 at 07:22, Edited on 25 June 19 at 07:23 by Silver1337
I'll admit upfront I'm not invested in the genre leaderboards and I'm okay with this either way, which is why I didn't comment in November. But when I saw this topic pop back up, I remembered the Action-Adventure genre was used in the first 12 Days of Christmas event. I realise this is a minor issue and not at all an argument against the change, but how will those genre challenges work under the new approach?

If broader genres like Action-Adventure aren't applied to all relevant games and only those that aren't subsumed into other categories, then that seems to limit how genre can be feasibly used in community events. I suppose there are plenty of genres and surely another will work for a given event, but it's still something to consider. Obviously, not a big deal.

Also, all the examples I could think of have a genre that directly relates to Action and another that directly relates to Adventure. On the one hand, duh, of course they do. On the other hand, I'm wondering if Action-Adventure could be applied invisibly like Shooter is as a parent genre when there's an Action + Adventure synergy in place (First Person Shooter + Open World or whatever). That way, there's less clutter on a game's page but you don't lose the ability to have Action-Adventure as a filter or a category for a community event. In the case of LEGO games, the Action-Adventure genre could remain as a catch-all.

Probably a bad idea for many reasons. *shrug*
Vitiated1
1,208,654
Vitiated1
Posted on 25 June 19 at 13:04
Even with the massive reduction that took place, there's still 3 pages worth of Action-Adventure games currently on the site with more sure to come out on a regular basis. The large number of LEGO games are just one example, but lots of indie titles and move tie-in games also fall under the category, so just because we removed games from it doesn't mean that the genre is now empty, just more curated and refined.

The reason why it has been excluded from games like Arkham and Tomb Raider is because the specific genres already imply the presence of Action-Adventure, so adding it would be redundant. If we didn't do that to the 3 mentioned genres then pretty much every game on the site would have either an Action, Adventure, or Action-Adventure genre tagged on in addition to what actually composes the core gameplay elements.
Eurydace
491,088
Eurydace
Posted on 25 June 19 at 14:50, Edited on 25 June 19 at 14:51 by Eurydace
So you asked for advice, literally everyone said it was a bad idea, and then you did it anyway?

You’ve now broken the genre.
Zeh Marcoss
424,345
Zeh Marcoss
Posted on 25 June 19 at 22:18
Vitiated1 said:
Even with the massive reduction that took place, there's still 3 pages worth of Action-Adventure games currently on the site with more sure to come out on a regular basis. The large number of LEGO games are just one example, but lots of indie titles and move tie-in games also fall under the category, so just because we removed games from it doesn't mean that the genre is now empty, just more curated and refined.

The reason why it has been excluded from games like Arkham and Tomb Raider is because the specific genres already imply the presence of Action-Adventure, so adding it would be redundant. If we didn't do that to the 3 mentioned genres then pretty much every game on the site would have either an Action, Adventure, or Action-Adventure genre tagged on in addition to what actually composes the core gameplay elements.
I heard you man, but I just don't see why this redundancy is such a big problem. I mean, if the very definition of this genre is so wide/broad, should not it include all the games that fit into it regardless of any redundancy?

On top of that, I wonder how many games on those three pages of "Action-Adventure" you mentioned really don't have enough elements to be included in any other genre.

I don't know about lego games, because I've never played any of them. But I saw in that list games like Valiant Hearts for example, taht could easily be included within the "puzzle" genre in my opinion. You would probably say that the game doesn't have enough puzzle elements, but I think that would be, at least, something debatable.

And then you have games like Bully: Scholarship Edition, which also happens to be an "Open World", and by the same criteria shouldn't be included in that list. Maybe it went unnoticed during the changes, but I couldn't tell for sure.

Not to mention games like Captain America: Super Soldier, which could probably be included in a "beat'em up" category where Batman Arkham remains.

In any case, as I said before, I don't even care about leaderboards to much, so whatever. Maybe it's just me, but I had to say that I had no problem with how the genre was before even with redundancy and all that, but I see some inconsistencies in the way it is now.

Thanks for your time.
Vitiated1
1,208,654
Vitiated1
Posted on 25 June 19 at 22:32
I wouldn't say the redundancy is a "problem", just generally something the team doesn't want to have present. Keeps things less cluttered in the long term. As far as the games that are currently A-A, we checked through them and made sure they don't belong elsewhere.

There are some exceptions, Bully is an example. "Open World" does nothing to describe gameplay, only the environment it takes place in. You can have a game that is an Action-Adventure game that takes place in an Open World, and since no game can only be Open World alone we decided to leave them together.
Zeh Marcoss
424,345
Zeh Marcoss
Posted on 25 June 19 at 23:26
Fair enough.

What you said about Bully really makes sense. But I keep my point about the other things.
Silver1337
294,816
Silver1337
Posted on 27 June 19 at 02:14
Thanks for the response! I think you've explained your position well and I can't think of any other unintended side effects at this time. My half-baked idea of an invisible parent genre continues to grow on me, but I realise that's not very practical (and may not even be possible in the way I described).

I remember when we used to get a genre breakdown of our yearly stats, so I think Action-Adventure is really important if something like that was reintroduced.

I do think the genre definition needs to be updated to reflect that it won't be applied alongside others.

E.g.
"Action-Adventure games combine elements of Action and Adventure. A game in this genre might incorporate a strong storyline, exploration of the game environment, interaction with non-player characters, and puzzle solving, amongst other things. This genre will not be applied alongside genres that already imply action and adventure (e.g. Shooter, Platformer), meaning the tag is reserved for games that don't contain enough elements to meet the criteria for any other genre."
Vitiated1
1,208,654
Vitiated1
Posted on 27 June 19 at 02:37
I quite like that updated definition Silver! I'll run it by the rest of the team and see if they feel the same way, if so we can apply it
Atsuma Karin
264,824
Atsuma Karin
Posted on 27 June 19 at 20:23
I agree with the proposal above, as it provides clarification to how we apply the genre. toast
KasugaSama
116,531
KasugaSama
Posted on 27 June 19 at 20:23
Likewise with the rest of the team.
Everything you do is a balloon.
Eurydace
491,088
Eurydace
Posted on 27 June 19 at 23:55
So can a member of the team tell us all how a genre that is applied inconsistently will be a benefit to the site? If one wants to find all games that meet the general definition of Action-Adventure, how do they do that?
IcyThrasher
559,820
IcyThrasher
Posted on 29 June 19 at 04:08
Silver1337 said:
I remember when we used to get a genre breakdown of our yearly stats, so I think Action-Adventure is really important if something like that was reintroduced.
If only. This was one of my favorite things to look at from time to time to see how certain genre growth was from year to year. It's a shame that the genre switch resulted in this feature being taken away,

To give my 2 cents on the actual topic, I'm in the group of people who think "Action-Adventure" isn't an actual genre but instead just 2 combined. And thus, I completely agree with Eurydace's statement.

Eurydace said:
Anyway this is a terrible idea. You should never, ever pick genres based on whether other genres apply if you want genres to have any meaning. If you think this genre has nothing to offer, delete it. I’ve said it should be deleted for years. It only exists because it always has. It’s worthless.

But don’t apply it based on whether other genres apply.
I don't think you should omit a genre just because the other ones "imply" that genre. If anything, that's more reason it should be present. If the genre fits, then it should be applied. If not, it adds to confusion, inconsistency, and hides it from those looking for it.
MyDanishReality
Posted on 29 June 19 at 05:26
I have to agree with Eurydace and IcyThrasher here. Example: a game like Sekiro, which now only has the stealth genre attached (I assume that's one of the genres you say implies AA?). Does it fit perfectly into the stealth genre? Sure, but anyone seeing just that one tag and decides to play based off that is in for a surprise. The game also fits perfectly into both action and AA, based on site definitions.

Basically, having the stealth tag only for a game like Sekiro is just not descriptive enough, in my opinion. Another game, Serial Cleaner, has the exact same tag, which is sufficient for that game, but if I understand you correctly Vitiated, it is "implied" to be an AA? Actually having the AA tag on Sekiro as opposed to Serial Cleaner makes a world of difference in how both games are perceived.

I just feel it's dangerous to say that "X genre implies Y" because I don't think this will always be true. After all, isn't it somewhat subjective?

(I used the stealth genre for my example due to a lot of the games in there formerly having the AA tag, hence me drawing the conclusion that stealth is one of the genres meant to imply AA.)
Want to join in the discussion? Please log in or Register For Free to comment.