Genre Discussion Archive

An archive messageboard for all things genres

Automobile

  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 27 February 19 at 01:40
    The team has decided that we will hold a little community discussion in regards to every sitewide genre change going forward. There will be a 2 week period in which we will discuss the topic relevant to the thread before a decision is reached and the topic is closed. In regards to Automobile, we see 3 possible options to take in order to resolve the issues with it:

    1. We keep things the way they currently are. Automobile is removed, the confusion it created is gone, no changes made.

    2. We also remove Aerial and Naval. Since these 3 genres were created essentially as "modifiers" for Vehicular Combat it doesn't work to get rid of one but leave the others intact.

    3. We reintroduce Automobile with new stipulations. We bring back Automobile in the capacity of ONLY being a Vehicular Combat modifier, allowing people to track VC with any vehicle type they want.

    Have your own opinions on what should be done? Post them here. Like any of the above solutions or think one should be taken off the table? Post that here as well.
  • Jackimo1999Jackimo1999141,095
    Posted on 27 February 19 at 01:50
    I can see a fourth way of resolving the issues with it. Bring it back and apply it to all games that fit the definition, including racing games. Do I really have to rewrite my essay? Am I not getting through to you here? The vast majority of the vocal community wants it applied to racing games, with good reason. When I saw the post saying that all site wide changes would have a consultation period, I thought "Finally, common sense prevails." But no, you haven't even acknowledged the solution that most people want.

    Do I have to go back and find all the reasons I've given for having automobile applied to racing games? I'd rather not have to repeat things at you like a kindergarten teacher but if it's what it takes, I'll do it.
  • SashamorningSashamorning2,932,118
    Posted on 27 February 19 at 04:21, Edited on 27 February 19 at 04:23 by Sashamorning
    "Automobile combat" seems reasonable.

    I can really see a strong argument to split out auto racing from other racers. Unless all of those are tagged automobile somehow, that can't happen. This is an extension of the third option you raised...

    allowing people to track VC with any vehicle type they want.
    Why not allow people to track racing with any vehicle type they want?
    Brevity is the soul of wit. ~W.S. / I guess I'm not witty. ~Sasha
  • EurydaceEurydace652,620
    Posted on 27 February 19 at 16:52
    Automobile should be brought back and allowed to go on racing. While most racing games involve cars, certainly not all of them do. Anyone who wants to compete specifically on car racers is unable to now. Anyone who wants to find car racers is unable to.

    I don’t see any justification for the change beyond voters not voting for it. As far as I’m concerned, that shouldn’t be used as justification for any change as there’s 100 reasons they may not have voted for it.
  • Epsilon ThetaEpsilon Theta1,042,926
    Posted on 27 February 19 at 18:14
    Option 4:
    Bring back Automobile and allow it to apply in conjunction with any other genre. To keep the two old sibling genres, Aerial and Naval, consistent, allow this for them as well.

    There are a few racers with planes or boats out there that would benefit from this I believe.

    I would also like to voice my opinion on option 2. I am fervently playing games that have to do with aerial combat. I just happen to love the genre. I, together with a very loyal crowd, would be very unhappy if suddenly we would only be able to track Vehicular Combat and not be able to add Aerial. It would put games like Ace Combat and World of Tanks in the same genre, which, I hope, you also see an issue with.
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 27 February 19 at 18:37
    Epsilon Theta said:
    Option 4:
    Bring back Automobile and allow it to apply in conjunction with any other genre. To keep the two old sibling genres, Aerial and Naval, consistent, allow this for them as well.

    There are a few racers with planes or boats out there that would benefit from this I believe.

    I would also like to voice my opinion on option 2. I am fervently playing games that have to do with aerial combat. I just happen to love the genre. I, together with a very loyal crowd, would be very unhappy if suddenly we would only be able to track Vehicular Combat and not be able to add Aerial. It would put games like Ace Combat and World of Tanks in the same genre, which, I hope, you also see an issue with.
    The issue with that option is that it puts us right back to where we were in the beginning. A group of people will want Automobile applied to not only Vehicular Combat and Racers, but other games that prominently feature cars such as Far Cry, Saints Row, and GTA. It's a lot like Real Time as a genre, technically that can be applied to almost all platformers, shooters, etc but we relegate it only to Strategy and RPG games. We want the same with Aerial, Naval, and Automobile.

    I do see an issue with that, that's not the route I want to take because I do feel these games need something to distinguish them.
  • EurydaceEurydace652,620
    Posted on 27 February 19 at 22:28
    What’s not the route you want to take?
  • IcyThrasherIcyThrasher1,308,742
    Posted on 28 February 19 at 00:21, Edited on 28 February 19 at 01:54 by IcyThrasher
    Vitiated1 said:
    Epsilon Theta said:
    Option 4:
    Bring back Automobile and allow it to apply in conjunction with any other genre. To keep the two old sibling genres, Aerial and Naval, consistent, allow this for them as well.

    There are a few racers with planes or boats out there that would benefit from this I believe.

    I would also like to voice my opinion on option 2. I am fervently playing games that have to do with aerial combat. I just happen to love the genre. I, together with a very loyal crowd, would be very unhappy if suddenly we would only be able to track Vehicular Combat and not be able to add Aerial. It would put games like Ace Combat and World of Tanks in the same genre, which, I hope, you also see an issue with.
    The issue with that option is that it puts us right back to where we were in the beginning. A group of people will want Automobile applied to not only Vehicular Combat and Racers, but other games that prominently feature cars such as Far Cry, Saints Row, and GTA. It's a lot like Real Time as a genre, technically that can be applied to almost all platformers, shooters, etc but we relegate it only to Strategy and RPG games. We want the same with Aerial, Naval, and Automobile.

    I do see an issue with that, that's not the route I want to take because I do feel these games need something to distinguish them.
    Vitiated1, I recommend putting the 3 racing/VC variations in the genre list together, stating that they are mostly for racing and VC. Just like how it is for real time and turn based in their descriptions stating they are for RPGs and Strategy. As others have stated, I would also recommend changing their names to more resemble air, water, and land. Anybody who wants to argue for more specific land variations such as bike, car, tank, train, bus, semi, etc. I'll leave that to them, I disagree needing to be that specific and I don't know enough about how many games are out their for racing to give any further input.

    Also just some constructive criticism, there will always be people who want a billion genres added to every AAA game, I don't see that as a reason to just delete a genre. Nor do I see it as a reason because people were miss understanding the genre. I do see those as reasons to better describe the genres in the list of genres. This would allow it to be easier to quote and use in genre disagreement threads.

    Option 1: makes no sense to me, but I also have no idea of how severe the genre was being miss applied or used.

    Option 2: makes no sense to me. These were argued for in the past and succeeded to convince enough people to get them added. I'm sure people still use and refer to them.

    Option 3: I thought this was how it was before, other than people wanting it applied to racing. Which I see no issue with if done in a way that I described in my first paragraph.

    To note: just because a genre or combination of genres is not being tracked currently by a lot of people, doesn't mean people don't refer to them or look them up from time to time. For example, I only track RPG but I only care about Turn Based RPG games. Just because I don't track the turn based portion doesn't mean I wouldn't put up a hell of a fight if it just disappeared one day.

    EDIT: In referencing my previous paragraph about turn based. It would also be accurate to say I care a lot about the real time genre existing. I hate it and prefer to avoid it. I don't track it, but I am glad it exists so that I can avoid those games. If it didn't exist, I would have a hell of time searching through forums on strategy games to find out what type of strategy game it is. Now, just substitute turn based and real time with the land, air, water differentiation. Idk if any of that makes sense, but hopefully I got my point across.

    Disclaimer, I don't care at all about racing genres at this time. Just adding my opinion in to the mix because it seems to be a hot topic of discussion.
  • Jackimo1999Jackimo1999141,095
    Posted on 28 February 19 at 02:24
    Vitiated1 said:
    A group of people will want Automobile applied to not only Vehicular Combat and Racers, but other games that prominently feature cars such as Far Cry, Saints Row, and GTA. It's a lot like Real Time as a genre, technically that can be applied to almost all platformers, shooters, etc but we relegate it only to Strategy and RPG games. We want the same with Aerial, Naval, and Automobile.

    I do see an issue with that, that's not the route I want to take because I do feel these games need something to distinguish them.
    All the games you just listed are undeniably shooters. That's what distinguishes them. I don't see the issue with adding automobile. So long as the genre definition is worded properly, to prevent all games with a car from getting added, and keeping it to those whose primary means of gameplay is an automobile, I don't see an issue with applying it to all games that fit the definition.

    I see a major problem with the way you're approaching this genre. You removed it because it was causing too much confusion, and now you're trying to put the confusion back in. You can't expect the community to vote consistently, if you're not consistent yourself.

    "Automobile games feature an automobile as the primary means of game play. This includes vehicular combat and racing games, but excludes games that have the player spending most of their time in other vehicles, or on foot."

    Apply that definition consistently, and I don't see there being any issues. It includes Mad Max and Wheelman, but excludes Grand Theft Auto, Far Cry, etc.

    It's also worth noting that automobile could be used as a standalone genre, in limited circumstances, particularly the handful of arcade racing games and action games which don't actually have racing in them, but do have a car, such as Stuntman: Ignition, Burnout Crash, and Drift Zone. As a racing fan, having non-racing games in the racing genre drives me insane.
  • EurydaceEurydace652,620
    Posted on 28 February 19 at 04:52
    Automobile doesn’t describe gameplay, so it can’t be a sole genre. It must always have something else. In the case of burnout crash mode, that should be action.
  • Jackimo1999Jackimo1999141,095
    Posted on 28 February 19 at 05:45
    Applying action to those games could work, but it’s by no means an elegant solution. A driving genre perhaps? Anyway, that’s a discussion for another day.
  • Epsilon ThetaEpsilon Theta1,042,926
    Posted on 28 February 19 at 16:58
    Vitiated1 said:
    Epsilon Theta said:
    Option 4:
    [...]
    The issue with that option is that it puts us right back to where we were in the beginning. A group of people will want Automobile applied to not only Vehicular Combat and Racers, but other games that prominently feature cars such as Far Cry, Saints Row, and GTA. It's a lot like Real Time as a genre, technically that can be applied to almost all platformers, shooters, etc but we relegate it only to Strategy and RPG games. We want the same with Aerial, Naval, and Automobile.

    I do see an issue with that, that's not the route I want to take because I do feel these games need something to distinguish them.
    I perfectly understand where you are coming from. This was a major concern when the first genres came around as well. What would need to be done is a clarification in the definition that states that games that prominently feature vehicles, but where the driving of said vehicles is not the main gameplay element of the game (GTA, Saints Row, etc), the Automobile, Naval, Aerial, etc genres are not applied as the gain of applying them as a discriminatory factor is not given.
    Furthermore, I don't really see why you'd track Open World games for Automobile, but would want to specifically exclude those with Naval or Aerial... "I want to track all Battlefield games where there are buggies but not boats or planes..." sure... I don't see that happen.

    Imagine Real Time and Turn Based, since you mentioned it. They are, for now, limited to Strategy games. But when the first genres were drafted, a discriminatory factor between Japanese and Western RPGs was their turn based or menu driven combat. What would speak against applying it to those RPG as well? I think it would enrich these games and allow the community to more accurately track what they like.
    Also, imagine a day where a Collectible Card Game is released that is not turn based (as all CCG are by default I think) but real time. Wouldn't applying that genre then make complete sense?

    It is not about adding genres like Automobile or Real Time to anything that includes a car or is, well, real time. It is about adding the genre where one of the main gameplay elements is about driving automobiles and the handling of them is crucial to your success in the game. This is how, back in my days, I always applied genres and I am not sure why that ever changed as, to me, this is the only sensible way of determining a game's genres.
  • EurydaceEurydace652,620
    Posted on 28 February 19 at 17:34
    For the first time maybe ever, I agree with an entire post written by Epsilon Theta. Well said. That is exactly why these genres exist, why they’re important, and why the current team’s philosophy doesn’t work — the system wasn’t designed to work any other way.
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 28 February 19 at 18:34
    So based on what everyone is saying, I've drafted a fourth option that I want to propose and see how everyone feels about it.

    A new genre called Ground or Land Based (so that it entirely encapsulates cars, tanks, bikes, etc) that is only used as modifiers for Racing and Vehicular Combat games. In turn, Aerial and Naval would be applied to all Racing or Vehicular Combat games that require them.

    This solution allows people to track what specific kind of VC and racing games they want while avoiding the issue of a broad "Automobile" genre that people would want to put into other games outside of VC or racing.

    Thoughts?
  • EurydaceEurydace652,620
    Posted on 28 February 19 at 19:31
    Sounds good.
  • Epsilon ThetaEpsilon Theta1,042,926
    Posted on 28 February 19 at 19:32, Edited on 28 February 19 at 19:33 by Epsilon Theta
    Ground-based makes sense for Vehicular Combat as it encapsulates all those chains and weird vehicles you do battle with. However, land-based doesn't really work for racing. Racing in cars or bikes is quite different and I would like to propose you keep these two separate.

    You could rule that cars, bikes, and land-based be separate; while an automobile is land-based, it is more specific and precedes the application of land-based.

    Edit: So Forza Horizon gets Automobile, PGR4 (?) gets Automobile and Bike, and World of Tanks gets Ground / Land-based.
  • SashamorningSashamorning2,932,118
    Posted on 28 February 19 at 19:48
    I think WoT is VC, whereas Forza is Automobile/racing. Except without Automobile, it becomes ground based.

    Makes sense to me.
    Brevity is the soul of wit. ~W.S. / I guess I'm not witty. ~Sasha
  • Jackimo1999Jackimo1999141,095
    Posted on 01 March 19 at 01:58
    One thing I still don't understand is why we are so against applying the genre to all games consistent with the definition. If you restrict it to racing and VC, yeah, it's better that not having it applied to racing, but you're still barreling towards the issue it had before, where it wasn't applied consistently, and people didn't vote consistently. Was there any issue with the definition I gave before? It avoids including every game with a car, but includes racing, vehicular combat, the action games I mentioned like Danger Zone and Burnout Crash, simulation games like Spintires and Bus Simulator, and Action-Adventure games like Wheelman or Mad Max. These games feature land-based vehicles at the centre of the game. They aren't just a means of getting around or the subject of a few side missions. That makes them different to other games in the genre. The game centres around the car. Why shouldn't they have this genre applied?

    On the subject of motorcycles, I don't think having two separate genres are justified. I haven't played many motorbike games, but for the most part, they behave the same as cars. The difference comes when motorbikes go off road, and we have a motocross genre already. I feel that land-based is perfectly fine for that application. We also have Kart Kraft coming out soon. Let's make a karting genre. Forza has trucks, let's make a truck genre, and down the rabbit hole we keep going. Those games will fit into the land-based genre, but making a new genre for every new vehicle is impractical at best.
  • EurydaceEurydace652,620
    Posted on 01 March 19 at 03:17
    I agree. Creating sub genres isn’t ideal. Shouldn’t Trials and Jet Car Stunts both be Automobile Platformers?
  • Posted on 01 March 19 at 03:23
    Jackimo1999 said:
    Do I really have to rewrite my essay? Am I not getting through to you here?
    Do I have to rewrite my warning again? To help it get through I can always help with a ban.

    Don't act like a condescending jerk.
    Ask me about my rock collection.
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