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Har Miggido
779,451
Har Miggido
Posted on 12 March 19 at 18:45
I totally agree with jackimo. Silencing him is just an immature move imo!

Close the thread if you are not prepared to listen to him anymore.
Epsilon Theta
685,481
Epsilon Theta
Posted on 12 March 19 at 20:40
The problem with "listening" is that some of us don't want to any more. If it weren't an online forum, we'd walk away. He has the right to speak or write but we are under no obligation to read or comment. However, since this is an online medium, we can't just walk away and we don't want to have to read what he has to say if there is no new argument being made.

This is not silencing him by any means, just telling him to please stop and let others have some space to continue the matter if needed.
Jackimo1999
108,325
Jackimo1999
Posted on 12 March 19 at 20:40
I’m willing to drop the issue after the genre teams addresses the issues raised, and explains why they have the stance they do in spite of those things.

Just to recap, there seems to be two reasons why people think that the automobile genre shouldn’t be applied to games outside of racing and VC. The first is clutter. Now, I’m not going to deny that making this change would create clutter. However, we’re not talking about going and adding 7 different genres to every game on the site. This is a second or third genre on less than two dozen games. We’re not talking about adding it to Grand Theft Auto. Car Mechanic Simulator under no circumstances should be given this genre. I just want the genre applied to games that have a land vehicles as the defining feature of their gameplay, most of which have less than three genres now.

The second is that it creates more work for the genre team. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m not trying to create more work for the genre team. They have to deal with every game and every disagreement anyway. It’s just a matter of having the automobile box ticked instead of not ticked.

Now, as far as I can see, that’s the argument against. The argument for is that it destroys leaderboards and creates clarity where there is none.

I’ve switched from tracking open world racing to automobile open world, but Spintires is still missing. It is an open world automobile game, but it’s missing from the leaderboard, which probably makes me a lot higher than I should be. It defeats the purpose of leaderboards if games are excluded bass on what other genres are on that game.

Secondly, there’s the clarity that comes from adding genres, which is kind of the point of genres. Spintires is a fundamentally different game to other simulation games. The genres its given should reflect that.

Now, if the genre team addresses the leaderboards, how small the change I’m asking for is in relation to the not massive, but certainly larger issues it creates, and the fundamental difference that controlling a land vehicle makes to a game, and whether the genres should reflect that, then I will drop the issue
Jackimo1999
108,325
Jackimo1999
Posted on 12 March 19 at 20:43
Epsilon Theta said:
The problem with {#}listening{#} is that some of us don't want to any more. If it weren't an online forum, we'd walk away. He has the right to speak or write but we are under no obligation to read or comment. However, since this is an online medium, we can't just walk away and we don't want to have to read what he has to say if there is no new argument being made.

This is not silencing him by any means, just telling him to please stop and let others have some space to continue the matter if needed.
New points have been made. You haven’t said anything.
Sashamorning
1,586,959
Sashamorning
Posted on 12 March 19 at 21:12
Rehashing old issues and trying to shame Genre isnt going to make them listen. It's going to make them walk away.

That's not silencing anyone. It just makes them want to stop reading at all.
Brevity is the soul of wit. ~W.S. / I guess I'm not witty. ~Sasha
Eurydace
489,800
Eurydace
Posted on 12 March 19 at 21:27
Yup. The battle is lost. Most of us gave up a long time ago trying to work with the team. They’re not interested in debate, especially not a hostile one. I think it’s their job, but obviously they don’t agree and are happy to ignore you. So give up and stop caring. Then you can be like us and come back occasionally just to see if things have changed because secretly you still want to care.
Har Miggido
779,451
Har Miggido
Posted on 13 March 19 at 05:47
Telling him stop or risk being banned from forums sounds like a silencing move to me
Epsilon Theta
685,481
Epsilon Theta
Posted on 13 March 19 at 07:11
Jackimo1999 said:
[...]New points have been made. You haven’t said anything.
The points are not new to me and do not warrant any comment on my part. You have "discovered" an issue and are very passionate about. However, similar issues had been discussed quite a few years back and conclusions had been drawn.

You disagree, that is fine, you can disagree. But the system does not have to acknowledge you or your opinion and has expressed the conclusion people agreed on back in the day. It's time to leave the windmills alone Don Quixote.
Nomstuff
615,636
Nomstuff
Posted on 13 March 19 at 09:36, Edited on 13 March 19 at 09:40 by Nomstuff
Har Miggido said:
Telling him stop or risk being banned from forums sounds like a silencing move to me
He's not being told to stop speaking.

Eurydace said:
They’re not interested in debate, especially not a hostile one. I think it’s their job, but obviously they don’t agree and are happy to ignore you.
It's not their job to debate or deal with hostile users.
Jackimo1999
108,325
Jackimo1999
Posted on 13 March 19 at 11:27
Epsilon Theta said:
Jackimo1999 said:
[...]New points have been made. You haven’t said anything.
The points are not new to me and do not warrant any comment on my part. You have {#}discovered{#} an issue and are very passionate about. However, similar issues had been discussed quite a few years back and conclusions had been drawn.

You disagree, that is fine, you can disagree. But the system does not have to acknowledge you or your opinion and has expressed the conclusion people agreed on back in the day. It's time to leave the windmills alone Don Quixote.
I am under no obligation to acknowledge the genre team’s opinion, or the moderators that are threatening me, or anyone else, but I choose to because that’s how a discussion works, and I want to reach an amicable solution.
Nomstuff
615,636
Nomstuff
Posted on 13 March 19 at 12:42, Edited on 13 March 19 at 12:42 by Nomstuff
The genre team are ones you're appealing to, so acknowledging them is required here, the moderator threats aren't idle so it'd be wise to heed them, everyone else you can do what you like.
dropK1CK ninJA
Posted on 13 March 19 at 13:50
Har Miggido said:
Telling him stop or risk being banned from forums sounds like a silencing move to me
Telling him to quit acting like a jerk about it sounds like a good moderator decision to me.

I won't be discussing this further publicly. If you really need more clarification, feel free to PM me.
Ask me about my rock collection.
Jackimo1999
108,325
Jackimo1999
Posted on 13 March 19 at 21:20
dropK1CK ninJA said:
Har Miggido said:
Telling him stop or risk being banned from forums sounds like a silencing move to me
Telling him to quit acting like a jerk about it sounds like a good moderator decision to me.

I won't be discussing this further publicly. If you really need more clarification, feel free to PM me.
You said not to act like a condescending jerk, we’ll, threatening to ban someone, or telling them to bang their head against the wall aren’t exactly symptoms of someone who’s down to earth.

I don’t think it’s that unreasonable to ask that the genre team read community discussion around a major change to the genre system, and respond to concerns brought up by the community. They’ve shown they’re not interested in working with us, so what would you have me do?

This issue is not going away, like I mentioned earlier, I’ve started tracking about different leaderboard. It’s going to be interesting when more games come that fit on that leaderboard but aren’t there. I will be submitting disagreements. The wording of the genre definition (which also wasn’t posted for community discussion) allows that. I’ll submit to have the games moved to the racing genre if I have to. The genre team is going to have to respond eventually, as is their job. Might as well be now.
ChinDocta
1,135,910
ChinDocta
Posted on 14 March 19 at 00:26, Edited on 14 March 19 at 00:38 by ChinDocta
Jackimo1999 said:
dropK1CK ninJA said:
Har Miggido said:
Telling him stop or risk being banned from forums sounds like a silencing move to me
Telling him to quit acting like a jerk about it sounds like a good moderator decision to me.

I won't be discussing this further publicly. If you really need more clarification, feel free to PM me.
You said not to act like a condescending jerk, we’ll, threatening to ban someone, or telling them to bang their head against the wall aren’t exactly symptoms of someone who’s down to earth.

I don’t think it’s that unreasonable to ask that the genre team read community discussion around a major change to the genre system, and respond to concerns brought up by the community. They’ve shown they’re not interested in working with us, so what would you have me do?
Stop

Jackimo1999 said:
This issue is not going away, like I mentioned earlier, I’ve started tracking about different leaderboard. It’s going to be interesting when more games come that fit on that leaderboard but aren’t there. I will be submitting disagreements. The wording of the genre definition (which also wasn’t posted for community discussion) allows that. I’ll submit to have the games moved to the racing genre if I have to. The genre team is going to have to respond eventually, as is their job. Might as well be now.
They won't fit, according to the site's definitions, if they aren't a racing or vehicular combat game. Regardless of whether you think they fit. Assuming you do submit disagreements and they are dismissed, I imagine you may resubmit the disagreement. Repeatedly doing so would likely lead to the team having to raise this with the mod team or admins.

If you submit and it is dismissed within the site's genre definitions wait until either members of the team have changed or the definition has changed before resubmitting. Without one or the other happening I doubt our minds will have changed.

I just want to be clear this is not a threat, it's just how I foresee things happening given your stubbornness (not necessarily a flaw just a personality trait) towards the subject. Continually submitting disagreements on the same games with the same arguments will not lead to positive results.

Edit: Just as a heads up as well Update To The TrueAchievements Forum Policy
GI Flagging Manager
Jackimo1999
108,325
Jackimo1999
Posted on 17 March 19 at 06:06
Eurydace said:
People are upset because they don’t understand your rulings because of 1) failure of communication, 2) lack of consistency or 3) a lack of understanding on the part of the genre team.
This very well sums up my feelings. A lack of communication, a lack of consistency, and a perceived lack of understanding. I'm not trying to declare myself to be completely, 100% correct. I just want to be heard. I say things and I don't get a response, so I keep saying them.
Epsilon Theta
685,481
Epsilon Theta
Posted on 17 March 19 at 11:48
You were heard, they clearly addressed you. What you want is not being heard but what you say be made reality. Two very different things.

They communicate late and by no means to a satisfactory degree, but cut them some slack please.
They try and make things consistent. Yes they fail, yes they sometimes take months to address reports, but they are only volunteers.
The third point is a big assumption. If they put up the rules, why do you assume it is them who got them wrong?
Eurydace
489,800
Eurydace
Posted on 17 March 19 at 16:26
It’s not an assumption. They do get it wrong sometimes. Misfit just mislabeled a genre as describing gameplay a few posts up. That’s not to imply they need to be perfect, of course. I was just providing reasons why people might be discontent.
Epsilon Theta
685,481
Epsilon Theta
Posted on 18 March 19 at 17:52
Getting something wrong doesn't mean you don't understand what you are doing. It doesn't even mean you lack understanding. It just means you got it wrong. I know it is easy to assume that, because you got something wrong, you don't understand it. And it is a fair assumption that most people make to make life easier. Doens't mean it is correct though.
Eurydace
489,800
Eurydace
Posted on 18 March 19 at 21:39
I stand by what I said.
Jackimo1999
108,325
Jackimo1999
Posted on 12 June 19 at 02:01
So what exactly is the current stance on vehicle genres outside of vehicular combat and racing? Naval and Automobile don't appear outside of those genres, but aerial does. What's going on? Are we applying vehicle genres to simulation games or not?
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