Editorials and Features Forum

Forum for Editorials and other News Features

An Open Letter on Assassin’s Creed, Artistic Vision and Social Change

AuthorMessage
Shadow 00 Fox
537,658
Shadow 00 Fox
Posted on 13 March 19 at 05:04
laugh I thought this thread had died... I was in for a shock! *popcorn* No really, it's quite interesting...
FullNietzsche
118,992
FullNietzsche
Posted on 13 March 19 at 10:30, Edited on 13 March 19 at 10:38 by FullNietzsche
N0T PENNYS B0AT said:
FullNietzsche said:
You are entitled to your views, others are entitled to theirs, but surely a video game achievements site is absolutely not the place to be posting such polarising, divisive subjects. Can you imagine if someone who was pro-everything you hate (let's say for the sake of argument it might be pro Trump, Brexit, nationalism, what have you). Now imagine this person regularly posted op-eds about how we should keep immigrants out and so on. Would this be a good idea? Or would it wind loads of people up, and drive people away?

I appreciate that many people have praised this article and enjoyed it, because it chimes with THEIR views. That is understandable. But if this is a site for all, it isn't good enough to just say 'don't read it if you don't like it'. You must know that would never fly if the boot was on the other foot as per my above example.

I think for the sake of harmony here, it is better to avoid these contentious subjects and come together on the things we do have in common, which is a love of video games and achievements. The site wisely has a policy of not having political threads. This really ought to be extended to the articles and to the admins / owners too I think. And I think that if they really thought about it, they'd realise this is for their own good too, and for everyone's.
As your argument seems based almost entirely on the idea that we shouldn't have these talks because some will disagree, I feel like I should inform you that such a view isn't good enough. They're important talks, especially in light of some commenters in this thread. To be fully transparent I personally find some of your comments to be the most dangerous in the string of 400+. I think it was your first comment, but the thread is much too long now to do that digging. Something about how dissenters remain non-violent {#}for now.{#} It was a really weird, deliberately vague threat. Apologies if that wasn't you but I think it was. Regardless, that commenter is exactly the person we speak to when we write this stuff.
Intrigued, I just found what I wrote, and it probably was me you are thinking of, BUT, you have put 2+2 together and made 5 there, I did not make any threat, implied or otherwise. I really didn't. You've just mistakenly inferred that's what I was saying, but I wasn't. I simply said the majority are being ignored for now. Anything further you read into that simple statement is in your imagination.

Additionally, even if we can't change your mind, we need to be the opposing voice so dangerous ideas like that example I gave aren't able to blossom. Bad ideas are only defeated by good ideas. Surely those are subjective terms, but over time, across a community or society, the right idea of {#}good{#} should prevail.

The shorter version of all this: games get {#}political.{#} (I put this in quotes because though I appreciate Radiant Viper's ideas that some characters being gay some times in some games shouldn't be a political issue, I also argue it simply has become one regardless -- and unfortunately). We too shall get political when it's relevant. It truly is a matter of don't click it if you don't want to read it. New forum rules are on the way to help clear up the gray areas between saying {#}no politics{#} but then writing about them, so that won't be an issue anymore and we can all operate with a better understanding of what will and will not be permitted in the forums.
Okay then. I've said what I think, it's your site, you will do what you will. I should probably take your advice and avoid reading or at least commenting in future as my political / social views apparently aren't welcome here.

(That isn't an attack on you btw, just an affirmation that I would prefer to keep my account and not be banned for expressing views the management don't share or approve of.)
TymanTheLong
177,167
TymanTheLong
Posted on 13 March 19 at 11:27, Edited on 13 March 19 at 11:28 by TymanTheLong
FullNietzsche said:
.....



For the sake of clarity: if there was a political op-ed which chimed with my views, I would be against that too because this isn't a political website, it's a gaming website for achievements. And thus it isn't the place for it. If that's what you want to read, there are a multitude of such venues on the web. Let's not make this another one.
Games have been commenting on social and political issues since well before Samus Aran removed her helmet and surprised most of a gamer generation by being female.

Games are art and art... well it reflects “us”, which comes loaded with all that divisive baggage along with everything else that makes up human culture.

While it’s fine to avoid ad hoc political posts on a site like this, this op ed didn’t come out of nowhere, it’s focused on a prominent bit of gaming news that is being loudly and frequently discussed. It’s, frankly, weird that you seem to be tacitly implying that the whole subject was manufactured out of thin air and is unrelated to gaming...
a Fi1thy Casual
Posted on 13 March 19 at 12:53, Edited on 13 March 19 at 12:55 by a Fi1thy Casual
FullNietzsche said:
N0T PENNYS B0AT said:
FullNietzsche said:
You are entitled to your views, others are entitled to theirs, but surely a video game achievements site is absolutely not the place to be posting such polarising, divisive subjects. Can you imagine if someone who was pro-everything you hate (let's say for the sake of argument it might be pro Trump, Brexit, nationalism, what have you). Now imagine this person regularly posted op-eds about how we should keep immigrants out and so on. Would this be a good idea? Or would it wind loads of people up, and drive people away?

I appreciate that many people have praised this article and enjoyed it, because it chimes with THEIR views. That is understandable. But if this is a site for all, it isn't good enough to just say 'don't read it if you don't like it'. You must know that would never fly if the boot was on the other foot as per my above example.

I think for the sake of harmony here, it is better to avoid these contentious subjects and come together on the things we do have in common, which is a love of video games and achievements. The site wisely has a policy of not having political threads. This really ought to be extended to the articles and to the admins / owners too I think. And I think that if they really thought about it, they'd realise this is for their own good too, and for everyone's.
As your argument seems based almost entirely on the idea that we shouldn't have these talks because some will disagree, I feel like I should inform you that such a view isn't good enough. They're important talks, especially in light of some commenters in this thread. To be fully transparent I personally find some of your comments to be the most dangerous in the string of 400+. I think it was your first comment, but the thread is much too long now to do that digging. Something about how dissenters remain non-violent "for now." It was a really weird, deliberately vague threat. Apologies if that wasn't you but I think it was. Regardless, that commenter is exactly the person we speak to when we write this stuff.
Intrigued, I just found what I wrote, and it probably was me you are thinking of, BUT, you have put 2+2 together and made 5 there, I did not make any threat, implied or otherwise. I really didn't. You've just mistakenly inferred that's what I was saying, but I wasn't. I simply said the majority are being ignored for now. Anything further you read into that simple statement is in your imagination.
Why is it when someone posts the words you used and argues them you act like it is not a quote from you?

It is not difficult to confirm that the bit you posted was, in fact, the bit you posted. All one has to do is scroll up the page a VIOLA! Your words confirmed.

Also, you have claimed (again) that "the majority are being ignored for now" which is still unsubstantiated. You have in no way provided any evidence for the existence of a majority that is somehow being blocked, or that there are opposing op-eds that have been written but not published on this site due to someone's specific political viewpoint. As a matter of fact (as I have already stated) the opposing views are alive and well in this thread as this thread has become a discussion. Which is what it should be.

FullNietzsche said:
Okay then. I've said what I think, it's your site, you will do what you will. I should probably take your advice and avoid reading or at least commenting in future as my political / social views apparently aren't welcome here.

(That isn't an attack on you btw, just an affirmation that I would prefer to keep my account and not be banned for expressing views the management don't share or approve of.)
I don't know if you are intentionally missing the mark here, or if you just do not understand, but nobody stated that your views are not welcome. The people responding to you are alone stating that you claimed this:

FullNietzsche said:
I think for the sake of harmony here, it is better to avoid these contentious subjects and come together on the things we do have in common, which is a love of video games and achievements.
These are your words. Own them. If you do want to avoid these "contentious subjects", that is your purgative. Telling the admins they should not have these types of articles "for the sake of harmony here" is an attempt at censorship. As in censoring things out of this particular public domain that you personally find "contentious".

If that was not your intention you have had ample opportunities to clarify yourself. Instead you have decided to play the victim, as though posting your opinion on a topic or disagreeing with an admin will get you "banned".
Fully loaded, safety off. This here is a recipe for unpleasantness.
FullNietzsche
118,992
FullNietzsche
Posted on 13 March 19 at 13:16
As we see, it soon gets very hostile and nasty when one doesn't agree with particular views, and my words are being misrepresented and twisted, hence I will leave this thread now.
a Fi1thy Casual
Posted on 13 March 19 at 13:54
FullNietzsche said:
As we see, it soon gets very hostile and nasty when one doesn't agree with particular views, and my words are being misrepresented and twisted, hence I will leave this thread now.
facepalm

It is like playing chess with a pigeon...
Fully loaded, safety off. This here is a recipe for unpleasantness.
kipfizh
203,988
kipfizh
Posted on 13 March 19 at 14:43
FullNietzsche, one point you are making is that divisive issues shouldn't be tackled on a site like this, for fear of people not liking one person's viewpoint.

I fundamentally disagree, for this site or any. As I was trying to say in my previous post (and perhaps didn't make clear) I think echo chambers are inherently bad - and social media has allowed many of us to live blissfully within one, with constant content pushed at us that algorithms know we'll agree with, friends we think the same as.

As a society, I think we've seriously lost our ability to debate. Everything is polarising now, and everyone is so entrenched in their viewpoint that they are just waiting as long as they need to for the opposing side to stop talking, so they can tell them why they are wrong. I'm generalising here, of course, but the trend is very much that way. News/entertainment channels that appeal to one 'side of the fence' only enhance that divide, and the internet gives it a platform.

The solution for me is exactly to have op-eds like this - put an opinion out there in a non-hostile way, and encourage discussion, while pushing out those who wish only to derail the conversation and lead it to abuse.

I always find the best way to learn about any subject is to talk about it with someone with opposing views. Otherwise you're just reinforcing your viewpoint, not questioning it. So even though I disagree with your opinion, I'm glad you shared it.
The Globalizer
Posted on 13 March 19 at 20:07
The Globalizer said:
Friendly reminder about how majoritarianism works: For the majority group, the status quo isn't political, but for minority/disaffected groups, any ask to have something equivalent to the majority group is viewed as political, even radical.
Requoted for emphasis.
Shadow 00 Fox
537,658
Shadow 00 Fox
Posted on 14 March 19 at 18:14, Edited on 14 March 19 at 18:20 by Shadow 00 Fox
I'm surprised to find I'm agreeing with someone called Nietzsche. (read spoilers at your own risk)

The point that politics is best left out of regular articles on TA can be a very good one. I like my games and achievements just like everyone else here, I also really enjoy political discussions.

But, where does it go?
For example, what if I brought up gun control(keep a firm grip and squeeze trigger firmly) Would we have a good discussion or an argument?
*** Spoiler - click to reveal ***


That could start a firestorm, because I'm disagreeing with other people's opinions(in my experience people get emotional on some of those topics and shut down their reasoning). Is TA really a good place for that? Isn't it better to leave it to sites like facebook, or even the TA forums in the off-topic zone, and not a major op-ed?
Note: If you'd like to be friends on facebook so we can indulge in political stuff more, feel free to PM me. I do post a lot of political stuff on FB and have good discussions whenever possible time permitting.

I will say, I've been very impressed over the years with the overall quality of opinions here on TA, and the general camaraderie that exists with people generally getting along(and a few bad eggs being banned). (Thanks Rich!)

I'd like to see TA still be a good meeting place for those who love achievements and achievement hunting. Articles that bring up divisive content are stirring the pot, in my opinion. Good for publicity, bad for business sometimes.

I don't include politics in my emails to my students parents. Sure, I could, and I could give great reasons to do it--they 'need to know', they 'should know', they 'need to be informed', etc, but that is NOT the reason I was given their contact info.


I also think that 'a Fi1thy Casual' and 'N0T PENNYS B0AT' were being unnecessarily hostile to Nietzsche. There was no need to respond so antagonistically as he was trying to make peace and explain his perspective.

I also found this quote from Penny especially troubling:
"As your argument seems based almost entirely on the idea that we shouldn't have these talks because some will disagree, I feel like I should inform you that such a view isn't good enough. They're important talks, especially in light of some commenters in this thread."
Penny, I believe you ignored his context, and proceeded to claim that anywhere and everywhere is a good place to have any discussion. I disagree. If I misunderstood you here, please correct the misunderstanding.

I'm all for free speech, the 2nd Amendment, and no unreasonable search and seizure(TSA, ugh); but, free speech does have it's limitations and practical considerations.

Last thought; if TA becomes a free politics anything anywhere and everywhere, without moderation it will quickly devolve into a shut-down of non-left opinion, then a lot of people will leave or go silent and it'll be an echo chamber.
*** Spoiler - click to reveal ***
N0T PENNYS B0AT
Posted on 14 March 19 at 19:02
Shadow 00 Fox said:
The point that politics is best left out of regular articles on TA can be a very good one. I like my games and achievements just like everyone else here, I also really enjoy political discussions.

But, where does it go?
For example, what if I brought up gun control(keep a firm grip and squeeze trigger firmly) Would we have a good discussion or an argument?
If something is on topic, the new forum rules say it is up for discussion. If you entered a thread about LGBT representation in Assassin's Creed and began talking about that, I think that's fine regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum, so long as you follow the rest of the guidelines as mentioned in the other thread. If you entered a thread about State of Decay 2's new hard mode and began talking about the coddling of America's youth, for example, yes you would be deleted and/or banned, assuming I'm understanding the rules correctly. The new forum rules literally expand what can be discussed. We had a no politics rule before. Now we have a politics when it's on topic rule.

I also found this quote from Penny especially troubling:
"As your argument seems based almost entirely on the idea that we shouldn't have these talks because some will disagree, I feel like I should inform you that such a view isn't good enough. They're important talks, especially in light of some commenters in this thread."
Penny, I believe you ignored his context, and proceeded to claim that anywhere and everywhere is a good place to have any discussion. I disagree. If I misunderstood you here, please correct the misunderstanding.
I'm speaking in the context of what would be on topic, again as the new rules state. I don't feel I ignored his context but if I misunderstood him that would be my mistake, but I never willfully misunderstand people. Good faith debate is quite nearly all we have to defeat bad ideas in the world. As I understood it, he was saying we should ax all political mentions so as to not upset anyone. I disagreed. I think if something is on topic to a news or opinion story on TA, which will always be linked to games somehow of course, then it's up for discussion. The new rules echo this, according to my understanding.
a Fi1thy Casual
Posted on 14 March 19 at 19:52
Shadow 00 Fox said:
I also think that 'a Fi1thy Casual' and 'N0T PENNYS B0AT' were being unnecessarily hostile to Nietzsche. There was no need to respond so antagonistically as he was trying to make peace and explain his perspective.
I have to disagree. Pointing out where one has missed the mark does not equate to hostility. The individual in question repeatedly stated that this Op-Ed had nothing to do with games or achievements, which is objectively false. That had been my point from the very start.

If you were to tell me that the sky is not blue, and I were to point out that you are incorrect, would you call that hostility towards you?
Fully loaded, safety off. This here is a recipe for unpleasantness.
Shadow 00 Fox
537,658
Shadow 00 Fox
Posted on 14 March 19 at 23:44
Interesting, I didn't know about the updated forum rules, I'll have to go hunt those down.

a Fi1thy Casual said:
Shadow 00 Fox said:
I also think that 'a Fi1thy Casual' and 'N0T PENNYS B0AT' were being unnecessarily hostile to Nietzsche. There was no need to respond so antagonistically as he was trying to make peace and explain his perspective.
I have to disagree. Pointing out where one has missed the mark does not equate to hostility. The individual in question repeatedly stated that this Op-Ed had nothing to do with games or achievements, which is objectively false. That had been my point from the very start.

If you were to tell me that the sky is not blue, and I were to point out that you are incorrect, would you call that hostility towards you?
Calling him a pigeon, refusing(from my perspective) to accept his explanation(about the threat of violence) and trying to force him to see things your way("Own Up" to his words), saying he's trying to play the victim, etc.

I'm not referring to the basic disagreements at all, there have been plenty of healthy ones of those.
Sky blue, if you said it politely, it wouldn't be hostile, but if you called me an idiot moronic peacock with no eyes........
Those things I've pointed out were not helpful in my opinion and simply served to shut useful conversation down.
RadiantViper
681,817
RadiantViper
Posted on 15 March 19 at 01:26, Edited on 15 March 19 at 01:30 by RadiantViper
Shadow 00 Fox said:
The point that politics is best left out of regular articles on TA can be a very good one. I like my games and achievements just like everyone else here, I also really enjoy political discussions.
This isn't a political topic.

Shadow 00 Fox said:
I also think that 'a Fi1thy Casual' and 'N0T PENNYS B0AT' were being unnecessarily hostile to Nietzsche. There was no need to respond so antagonistically as he was trying to make peace and explain his perspective.
The guy is talking about the article being Marxist propaganda, "The very idea of tolerance is a nonsense in itself", and says multiculturalism is "divisive". "Make peace" my ass.
Joshi 82 AT
721,481
Joshi 82 AT
Posted on 15 March 19 at 08:30
I wonder how the Author of the article is doing these days?
Is he still writing on TA?

After 22 sites of comments and an updated forum policy I can't get the picture out of my head that there is a person somewhere in the world, cowering in the fetus position, shaking his head and constantly mumbles "what happened, what happened... what happened?" smile

Please don't take this comment seriously. wink
a Fi1thy Casual
Posted on 15 March 19 at 11:52
Shadow 00 Fox said:
Calling him a pigeon,
It is quite a common phrase actually - not calling him a "pigeon" literally, just referring to his refusal to actually discuss his claim.

Shadow 00 Fox said:
refusing(from my perspective) to accept his explanation(about the threat of violence) and trying to force him to see things your way("Own Up" to his words), saying he's trying to play the victim, etc.
I did not really care about the whole threat of violence bit - my problem was his constant claim of "I never said that" when, clearly, he did.

That was my point of "owning your words" - he wrote them. Claiming "Nope you misunderstood" does not hold any water when the same individual refuses, multiple times, to actually clarify his words.
Fully loaded, safety off. This here is a recipe for unpleasantness.
Eurydace
484,489
Eurydace
Posted on 15 March 19 at 12:51
Joshi 82 AT said:
I wonder how the Author of the article is doing these days?
Is he still writing on TA?

After 22 sites of comments and an updated forum policy I can't get the picture out of my head that there is a person somewhere in the world, cowering in the fetus position, shaking his head and constantly mumbles {#}what happened, what happened... what happened?{#} smile

Please don't take this comment seriously. wink
I revel in this.

Truly, though, I expected a worse response than this. There are a few people who have said things I find despicable, but on the whole I think the conversation has been healthy. I don’t know if I convinced anyone, but I hope so.
TymanTheLong
177,167
TymanTheLong
Posted on 17 March 19 at 05:51
Eurydace said:
Joshi 82 AT said:
I wonder how the Author of the article is doing these days?
Is he still writing on TA?

After 22 sites of comments and an updated forum policy I can't get the picture out of my head that there is a person somewhere in the world, cowering in the fetus position, shaking his head and constantly mumbles {#}what happened, what happened... what happened?{#} smile

Please don't take this comment seriously. wink
I revel in this.

Truly, though, I expected a worse response than this. There are a few people who have said things I find despicable, but on the whole I think the conversation has been healthy. I don’t know if I convinced anyone, but I hope so.
If it makes you feel even better, I once brought up that something should be removed from the rule book for a table top game I play, as it was puerile and almost certainly was not inviting to a lot of potential players. This particular game (not GW) had one of the most mature and kind crowds I’d ever seen. Man, it blew the heck up in some nasty internet rage.

The irony was the company had already removed that statement before anyone asked. It’d been missing from a lot of their materials for awhile by then (they’d had a printing mistake that had included it in a recent product I’d purchased so I legitimately thought it was still in use). So all that rage about people like me ruining the game...? Yeah, apparently they company had already “ruined the game” and no one even noticed.

I just remember being so sad that a community that I’d thought was much, much better than that acted in such a manner (I’ve been in the internet since the 90s so I already hold a low opinion of internet users in general).
Shadow 00 Fox
537,658
Shadow 00 Fox
Posted on 17 March 19 at 19:04
I want to know what it was you thought should be removed.. dance
TymanTheLong
177,167
TymanTheLong
Posted on 18 March 19 at 08:16
Shadow 00 Fox said:
I want to know what it was you thought should be removed.. dance
I’d rather not call it out publicly, as I said, I didn’t find it to be a shining moment for much of the community.
Want to join in the discussion? Please log in or Register For Free to comment.