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Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice - GOTY Edition Discussion - Spoiler Free

  • AllgorhythmAllgorhythm614,968
    Posted on 15 March 22 at 15:29
    EarthboundX said:
    Personally I'd disagree with that, Sekiro has a much higher skill ceiling than any of the Dark Souls games. With DS if you get stuck, you can grind levels, use OP magic, or call in co-op. With Sekiro there's not much you can do other than practice and get better. It's still challenging in a fair way, but there's no "easy" way out like in the DS games.
    Gachiin's Sugar is one easy way out in Sekiro. laugh
  • EarthboundXEarthboundX2,001,347
    Posted on 15 March 22 at 19:43
    Allgorhythm said:
    EarthboundX said:
    Personally I'd disagree with that, Sekiro has a much higher skill ceiling than any of the Dark Souls games. With DS if you get stuck, you can grind levels, use OP magic, or call in co-op. With Sekiro there's not much you can do other than practice and get better. It's still challenging in a fair way, but there's no "easy" way out like in the DS games.
    Gachiin's Sugar is one easy way out in Sekiro. laugh
    I never found stealth to be a hard part of the game, so I guess I never used that.
  • Posted on 15 March 22 at 20:22
    I’ll be honest, I haven’t played a single Souls-style game and as far as I’ve heard this is one of the hardest in this category so this would be the worst to start with laugh

    I will play them all at somepoint, when I’m prepared for the legendary difficultly of this who genre of game.
  • AllgorhythmAllgorhythm614,968
    Posted on 15 March 22 at 21:09
    ManicMetalhead said:
    I’ll be honest, I haven’t played a single Souls-style game and as far as I’ve heard this is one of the hardest in this category so this would be the worst to start with laugh

    I will play them all at somepoint, when I’m prepared for the legendary difficultly of this who genre of game.
    You’re on the TA Playlist staff. You owe it to yourself to sample the menu you select for us. laugh
  • AllgorhythmAllgorhythm614,968
    Posted on 15 March 22 at 21:12
    EarthboundX said:
    I never found stealth to be a hard part of the game, so I guess I never used that.
    That’s true. For a stealth game, the enemies are pretty clueless. You can be blundering about making a fair amount of noise & eavesdropping on a conversation, “Hey, I hear there’s a ninja sneaking around.” laugh
  • Posted on 15 March 22 at 21:47
    Allgorhythm said:
    FruitofPassion said:
    Boy I really wouldn't go telling people it's not as challenging as DS. Coming from the Reddit for Sekiro, there's a good chunk of people who'd argue it's actually harder :p
    I myself would say it's just a different style of difficulty.
    I'm only a few hours into Sekiro. I've only gotten to one main boss and half a dozen sub-bosses. But I haven't died yet except once intentionally to get the Resurrection achievement.

    The difference is posture is much more forgiving than stamina.

    I think the reason for many people's frustrations is they've tried to play Sekiro like a Souls game. It's not a Souls game Souls games are RPGs. You level up. You get better equipment. Sekiro is a stealth game.

    Again, I certainly concede that there are individual differences. But my experience is that the King's Field & Souls game require more raw skill whereas, in Sekiro, you can reduce the skill requirement by substituting stealth tactics and mobility.
    Ooooo. I did not realize you have not fully played this game before. Hehehe. Lucky you! I wish I could relive the first time Especially since there are certain...suprises. I would be very interested to know if you still think it's easier when you finish the game, please do let me know! It's not that I'm trying to bash your capabilities or anything, it's just suddenly much more interesting to see what you think about the game after the difficulty spikes :p
    Since this is spoiler free I can't say too much but I personally think the game truly starts once you fight the first "real" boss on top of a building. Someone you probably already know. It's the make-or-break point of the game that generates a lot of online complaints xD

    Yes, posture is quite unique to this game and I can agree with what you say about stamina. Though do be warned that you can still break your posture too. If your posture bar fills up it may be a death sentence. If you didn't know, you can reduce your bar faster by guarding - while not taking hits that is. And although you can guard through a lot of stuff be warned that it fills your posture pretty quick. Some enemies and bosses are designed to counter you doing that. It would be a good idea to get used to properly deflecting. The first "real" boss is kinda a skill check in doing that. Also running around is a great strategy for the bull so good job on doing that! :p

    Hit the nail on the head with the "not a souls game" comment. Many of us Fromsoft fans were talking about how you had to "unlearn" Dark Souls to play this game when it came out. I struggled for awhile getting the hang of the switch too.

    It's interesting hearing your thoughts about it being a stealth game. I myself although making use of stealth in sections, never played it mostly stealth from point to point. I personally enjoy the fighting my way through in most cases. I'd be afraid that skipping too much would harm your ability to buy new skills as you need xp for that. Therefore, I wrap back around to my first comment saying, tell me about it when you've finished the game. Curious to know how that goes. ^.^
  • Posted on 15 March 22 at 21:48
    Hey everyone!

    The game is on sale half off right now (at least in the US on Xbox) so to all the people saying "I'd buy it if it went on sale..."

    *wink wink
  • A Jedi KnightA Jedi Knight1,554,964
    Posted on 15 March 22 at 22:41
    I almost bought this at Christmas but decided not to.
  • The NotoThe Noto636,398
    Posted on 15 March 22 at 22:54
    FruitofPassion said:
    Hey everyone!

    The game is on sale half off right now (at least in the US on Xbox) so to all the people saying "I'd buy it if it went on sale..."

    *wink wink
    Yeah, I think I am finally going to break down and get it.
  • Tucky90Tucky901,162,534
    Posted on 16 March 22 at 10:45
    Allgorhythm said:
    EarthboundX said:
    I never found stealth to be a hard part of the game, so I guess I never used that.
    That’s true. For a stealth game, the enemies are pretty clueless. You can be blundering about making a fair amount of noise & eavesdropping on a conversation, “Hey, I hear there’s a ninja sneaking around.” laugh
    Probably the main thing I disagree with is that this is a stealth game. For sure it has stealth elements and yes they do help in certain parts. But there are no substantial consequences for getting detected.

    I would look at something like Styx as a stealth game. Where if you get detected, you will typically die 9/10.

    Suppose there is a discussion in there somewhere as to what truly makes a game a stealth game.
  • AllgorhythmAllgorhythm614,968
    Posted on 16 March 22 at 17:06, Edited on 16 March 22 at 17:23 by Allgorhythm
    Tucky90 said:
    Probably the main thing I disagree with is that this is a stealth game. For sure it has stealth elements and yes they do help in certain parts. But there are no substantial consequences for getting detected.

    I would look at something like Styx as a stealth game. Where if you get detected, you will typically die 9/10.

    Suppose there is a discussion in there somewhere as to what truly makes a game a stealth game.
    I've said, in a number of places that the stealth conventions are not as well established as they are in hard-core stealth games like the Deus Ex Series, the Metal Gear Series, & THIEF. TA categorizes Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice - GOTY Edition as both action-adventure and stealth. I agree with that. Action-adventure is just a catch-all. If we were to apply a more meaningful classification, stealth is the obvious choice.

    Stealth games trace their lineage to three games: Tenchu: Stealth Assassins, Metal Gear Solid, & Thief: The Dark Project released in that order all in the same year (1998). The three games were developed at the same time. There was significant collaboration between the three developers who were deliberately definitizing stealth conventions.

    Tenchu: Stealth Assassins & its sequels were developed by Acquire and published (outside JP) by Activision. In 2004, From Software bought the rights to Tenchu. A few years ago, From Software started pitching the concept for a Tenchu sequel. Activision, being the original publisher, was very enthusiastic. Although the game morphed from being a Tenchu sequel, Activision stayed on board. That's why it is Activision--rather than From's usual publisher Bandai Namco--that published Sekiro.

    The point I'm making though is that the DNA of the very first hard-core stealth game is in Sekiro.

    But, as we both agree, Sekiro did not end up as a hard-core stealth game. From Software decided to develop an original IP rather than a Tenchu sequel. But Sekiro still has enough stealth conventions to qualify. All enemies have an alertness indicator that transitions from clear to white to amber to red as the enemy becomes aware of Sekiro's presence. The gauge responds to both sight (being in the field of vision) & sound. Terrain features & tall grass obscure Sekiro who can stealth kill around corners or by hanging from ledges in addition to sneak attacks & drop assassinations.

    The important thing, unlike traditional action games where a sneak attack results in a preemptive attack that gives the player-character some advantage, Sekiro's stealth attack results in an instant kill or, in the case of sub-bosses & bosses, the loss of a life. This is consistent with a hard-core game like THIEF. Garrett, the player-character, can defeat enemies in one hit from stealth, regardless of the game's difficulty setting. But, regardless of the game's difficulty settings, he must work hard to defeat an enemy in a face to face confrontation. To do so, he must parry and dodge before being able to land an effective strike in the same way that Sekiro relies on deflections & side-steps.

    To me, there are enough stealth conventions to qualify the game as stealth if we want to do more than stick an action-adventure tag on the game. Genres are blurring nowadays. There is a lot of cross-pollination. Take Assassin's Creed, for example--clearly, a stealth game. Fast forward a decade to Assassin's Creed Origins. Now, one can approach the game with a wide variety of play styles. The franchise has borrowed from non-stealth action-adventure games and RPGs. But, it's still a stealth game. It's just that it is not only a stealth game but other things as well. The same is true for Sekiro.
  • Osmo76Osmo761,446,588
    Posted on 16 March 22 at 22:52
    ManicMetalhead said:
    I’ll be honest, I haven’t played a single Souls-style game and as far as I’ve heard this is one of the hardest in this category so this would be the worst to start with laugh

    I will play them all at somepoint, when I’m prepared for the legendary difficultly of this who genre of game.
    I feel exactly the same, except if I am completely honest I probably will never play any. Too hard games have just started to feel more and more like chores.
  • Posted on 16 March 22 at 23:10
    Osmo76 said:
    ManicMetalhead said:
    I’ll be honest, I haven’t played a single Souls-style game and as far as I’ve heard this is one of the hardest in this category so this would be the worst to start with laugh

    I will play them all at somepoint, when I’m prepared for the legendary difficultly of this who genre of game.
    I feel exactly the same, except if I am completely honest I probably will never play any. Too hard games have just started to feel more and more like chores.
    It is fair definitely fair to say you should know what to be expecting when going into these games and if it's not your thing that's perfectly fine. Though I still say if either of you guys are ever in the mood for a satisfying challenge, they are top notch designed games hiding under that challenge. Also with Elden Ring out now, it's probably the best one in the series in terms of introducing new players to the series. ;p
  • AllgorhythmAllgorhythm614,968
    Posted on 17 March 22 at 03:24
    FruitofPassion said:
    I feel exactly the same, except if I am completely honest I probably will never play any. Too hard games have just started to feel more and more like chores.
    I feel the most important aspect of any game is the fun factor. That usually revolves around some type of challenge but not everyone enjoys the same type of challenge. Some, may like to solve a puzzle. Others, might want to hone hand & eye coordination skills. We have enough chores to do in real life. We shouldn't feel obligated to play a game if it feels like drudgery.

    It's true that for Souls-type games, you have to figure out the right approach. That tends to take some trial & error. The error, of course, means you die. But, in the defense of the Souls-type games, dying is expected. It's a temporary thing and you quickly get back on track to try again. In contrast, there are many games where miscues are not so forgiving.

    I played an RPG once where I sold the starting-out weapon--a stick. I didn't need the cash--it was miniscule. But, my inventory was becoming cumbersome & I wanted to make it more manageable. I finished the game. Lo-&-behold a DLC came out. One of the achievements was to possess one of every type of weapon in the game. You could not buy this stick. The only way you could obtain it was at the very start of the game. So, I had to play the entire game again.
  • Posted on 17 March 22 at 07:10
    Flumptigan said:
    Just posting for the badge, not one i care for myself
    Feel this way too. I rage too much at games so from everything I've heard about this and the Souls games, I tend to stay away from them.
  • EarthboundXEarthboundX2,001,347
    Posted on 17 March 22 at 07:59, Edited on 17 March 22 at 08:05 by EarthboundX
    Man, people have really oversold the difficulty of the Souls games over the years haven't they? Lol.

    They've scared off so many people from the games. Even when I say Sekiro is the harder of the games so far, a lot of times that means a boss took more than one try. Though I'd be lying if I said some a few of the bosses didn't take me 10-20 plus attempts. Games are just so easy nowadays, so I guess these games are pretty much the hardest in comparison to most games where you rarely die or get sent back to a farther than normal checkpoint?

    These games aren't NES hard. NES hard is games being hard for usually the wrong reasons. I've always thought these games were hard for the best reasons, challenging but fair.
  • Posted on 17 March 22 at 08:22
    EarthboundX said:
    Man, people have really oversold the difficulty of the Souls games over the years haven't they? Lol.

    They've scared off so many people from the games. […] Games are just so easy nowadays, so I guess these games are pretty much the hardest in comparison to most games where you rarely die or get sent back to a farther than normal checkpoint?
    My cents on that is that games nowadays are easy if you know where to look, and vice versa for the hard stuff. Then again, I was pretty underwhelmed by "Unsighted" and "Ruiner" difficulty-wise despite their high ratios (although they each have one decently hard achievement: “Parry Goddess” for the former and “Dressed to kill” for the latter (tho imo the latter really depends on strat knowledge for the sub-hour speedrun)) so I suppose the average skill among gamers is lower as well, good reason why casual games such as "Among Us" manage to take-off in popularity once decent amount of people are aware of the game.

    P.S To have some wording regarding "Sekiro" specifically so that this comment doesn’t feel exclusively off-topic somewhat, enjoying the game so far, first FromSoft title excluding a little taste of the first "Dark Souls".
  • Tucky90Tucky901,162,534
    Posted on 17 March 22 at 11:06
    Allgorhythm said:
    Tucky90 said:
    Probably the main thing I disagree with is that this is a stealth game. For sure it has stealth elements and yes they do help in certain parts. But there are no substantial consequences for getting detected.

    I would look at something like Styx as a stealth game. Where if you get detected, you will typically die 9/10.

    Suppose there is a discussion in there somewhere as to what truly makes a game a stealth game.
    I've said, in a number of places that the stealth conventions are not as well established as they are in hard-core stealth games like the Deus Ex Series, the Metal Gear Series, & THIEF. TA categorizes Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice - GOTY Edition as both action-adventure and stealth. I agree with that. Action-adventure is just a catch-all. If we were to apply a more meaningful classification, stealth is the obvious choice.

    Stealth games trace their lineage to three games: Tenchu: Stealth Assassins, Metal Gear Solid, & Thief: The Dark Project released in that order all in the same year (1998). The three games were developed at the same time. There was significant collaboration between the three developers who were deliberately definitizing stealth conventions.

    Tenchu: Stealth Assassins & its sequels were developed by Acquire and published (outside JP) by Activision. In 2004, From Software bought the rights to Tenchu. A few years ago, From Software started pitching the concept for a Tenchu sequel. Activision, being the original publisher, was very enthusiastic. Although the game morphed from being a Tenchu sequel, Activision stayed on board. That's why it is Activision--rather than From's usual publisher Bandai Namco--that published Sekiro.

    The point I'm making though is that the DNA of the very first hard-core stealth game is in Sekiro.

    But, as we both agree, Sekiro did not end up as a hard-core stealth game. From Software decided to develop an original IP rather than a Tenchu sequel. But Sekiro still has enough stealth conventions to qualify. All enemies have an alertness indicator that transitions from clear to white to amber to red as the enemy becomes aware of Sekiro's presence. The gauge responds to both sight (being in the field of vision) & sound. Terrain features & tall grass obscure Sekiro who can stealth kill around corners or by hanging from ledges in addition to sneak attacks & drop assassinations.

    The important thing, unlike traditional action games where a sneak attack results in a preemptive attack that gives the player-character some advantage, Sekiro's stealth attack results in an instant kill or, in the case of sub-bosses & bosses, the loss of a life. This is consistent with a hard-core game like THIEF. Garrett, the player-character, can defeat enemies in one hit from stealth, regardless of the game's difficulty setting. But, regardless of the game's difficulty settings, he must work hard to defeat an enemy in a face to face confrontation. To do so, he must parry and dodge before being able to land an effective strike in the same way that Sekiro relies on deflections & side-steps.

    To me, there are enough stealth conventions to qualify the game as stealth if we want to do more than stick an action-adventure tag on the game. Genres are blurring nowadays. There is a lot of cross-pollination. Take Assassin's Creed, for example--clearly, a stealth game. Fast forward a decade to Assassin's Creed Origins. Now, one can approach the game with a wide variety of play styles. The franchise has borrowed from non-stealth action-adventure games and RPGs. But, it's still a stealth game. It's just that it is not only a stealth game but other things as well. The same is true for Sekiro.
    Whilst I agree that the action/adventure tag is a bit of a generic blanket, it is still what I would classify as Sekiro's main genre. Without a doubt Stealth is a sub genre for sure.

    I simply don't look at the defining feature being the advantages of stealth vs the disadvantages of going loud. I look at it as the importance of stealth within the games progression. In Sekiro you can play the entire game without a shred of stealth and not notice to much of a difference, whilst alternatively you can not complete it playing stealth only.

    For a game in a series that is marketed off of the boss battles, stealth provides no assistance at all for the games many main bosses.

    Glad you brought up AC because whilst I love the series I have similar view on it. The game gives you stealth options but isn't strict enough on you when you fail at it. For me the best sections of the game were when you would get desynnced for getting detected. With that being said, the AC Chronicles are for me true stealth games.

    I still think its an interesting discussion to have but I am guessing that true stealth games just don't sell as well, so they have to be blended with alternative options. Which is a shame because they are very enjoyable to play when done right.
  • AllgorhythmAllgorhythm614,968
    Posted on 17 March 22 at 13:08
    EarthboundX said:
    These games aren't NES hard. NES hard is games being hard for usually the wrong reasons. I've always thought these games were hard for the best reasons, challenging but fair.
    Agreed. Top tier shoot ‘em ups are hard. Souls games are nowhere near as challenging. They simply correct a trend where you were button spamming through RPGs. Combat became meaningful again. I don’t play games to be bored & Souls games make sure players are not bored. smile
  • AllgorhythmAllgorhythm614,968
    Posted on 17 March 22 at 13:57
    Tucky90 said:
    I still think its an interesting discussion to have but I am guessing that true stealth games just don't sell as well, so they have to be blended with alternative options. Which is a shame because they are very enjoyable to play when done right.
    That’s true. I played Tenchu: Stealth Assassins, Metal Gear Solid, & Thief: The Dark Project when they came out in 1998. Warren Spector who created Thief later went on to create the Deus Ex series in 2000 which I found even more fascinating.

    But stealth games require patience. Generally, you have to creep your way through inch by inch. Five years before Tenchu came out, Doom had addicted players to mowing down hordes of enemies guns blazing.

    THIEF has a much higher TA rating than Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice - GOTY Edition: 4.5 to 2.3–2% completion compared to 8%. It’s a shorter game. But it’s hardcore stealth. I guess people prefer the action of frustrating bosses to the frustration of inching their way past enemies they don’t get to fight.

    The maps in THIEF are convoluted. There are many routes to take—each with their own risk reward dynamic. I tried to demystify them in the THIEF Walkthrough providing illustrated streamlined routes through the game. But, in the end, people find slaughtering hordes of demons more satisfying than sneaking through high up on the rafters. laugh
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