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Ratalaika no longer considering easy 1,000G updates after community pushback

  • KriegKrieg228,135
    Posted on 02 April 23 at 21:00
    Slayer Reigning said:
    The Allslayer said:
    GusM60Patton said:
    Do you and slayer reigning always do everything together? Stop holding hands and brigading, it’s pathetic.

    Majority of you all are guilty of easy completions or following a guide or boosting with friends and killing each other to grind, and you want to draw lines on imaginary points, when it becomes ok and when it becomes wrong. It’s gate keeping and akin to an echo chamber. Where is my ban you all keep saying I’m getting?

    Because you don’t run shit and you aren’t shit. You’re just another gamer with a complex trying to tell other people how to do shit when you aren’t perfect.

    Who cares? Why does this conversation matter? It sure won’t stop any game releases and it won’t affect anyone, might stress you out until you become unhealthy but that’s a blessing. Keep coming back
    Doesn't look like Slayer Reigning has even replied to you? And I don't think I've ever interacted with him besides accepting a friend request on here but ok?

    You seem very defensive for someone that doesn't care, all I said was you didn't play the game which is why you don't remember it. I don't do shit on PC so I have no idea if that is a game that TA allows such methods for or not.

    Investigations take like a couple weeks or something fyi, so nothing would be happening anytime soon assuming you were just reported in the last few days anyway.
    I guess this guy is still going, and wasn't his tag Krieg when I was replying?!

    Allslayer and I have a mutual love for Gears, plus his tag is great IMO cause it was a play on Allfather, with a great touch.
    I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but please don't associate me with this person. They're slightly unhinged.
  • The AllslayerThe Allslayer1,395,664
    Posted on 02 April 23 at 22:09
    Slayer Reigning said:
    The Allslayer said:
    GusM60Patton said:
    Do you and slayer reigning always do everything together? Stop holding hands and brigading, it’s pathetic.

    Majority of you all are guilty of easy completions or following a guide or boosting with friends and killing each other to grind, and you want to draw lines on imaginary points, when it becomes ok and when it becomes wrong. It’s gate keeping and akin to an echo chamber. Where is my ban you all keep saying I’m getting?

    Because you don’t run shit and you aren’t shit. You’re just another gamer with a complex trying to tell other people how to do shit when you aren’t perfect.

    Who cares? Why does this conversation matter? It sure won’t stop any game releases and it won’t affect anyone, might stress you out until you become unhealthy but that’s a blessing. Keep coming back
    Doesn't look like Slayer Reigning has even replied to you? And I don't think I've ever interacted with him besides accepting a friend request on here but ok?

    You seem very defensive for someone that doesn't care, all I said was you didn't play the game which is why you don't remember it. I don't do shit on PC so I have no idea if that is a game that TA allows such methods for or not.

    Investigations take like a couple weeks or something fyi, so nothing would be happening anytime soon assuming you were just reported in the last few days anyway.
    I guess this guy is still going, and wasn't his tag Krieg when I was replying?!

    Allslayer and I have a mutual love for Gears, plus his tag is great IMO cause it was a play on Allfather, with a great touch.
    You just blew my mind right now, nobody has ever made that connection before (not even me) laugh. I actually just nicked it from Warhammer 40k, sorry to disappoint redface
  • Luna Invictus4Luna Invictus41,040,736
    Posted on 02 April 23 at 22:39, Edited on 02 April 23 at 22:51 by Luna Invictus4
    I'd like to add my opinion, which most likely won't care about, but nevertheless I'd like to.
    In terms of TA score, I think the calculation could be tweaked to take more into consideration (I know this has been argued for years now...). I think TA score should include more than % of unlocks (ratio), such as estimated length of game completion. By applying a lower percentage ratio to games below a completion threshold, and a higher one to games above that threshold, TA would also scale value due to time needed to invest into the game. This would give a further differentiation between short, intermediate, long, and impossibly long games. Still not perfect, but a start.
    As an example, let's say the estimated completion time threshold is 10 hours. Let's say the time differentiation ratio is 0.5 for <30 min games. If a game has an ETA of <30 mins, currently a TA of 1020, this would make this game have a new TA of 510.
    Now, let's say the time differentiation ratio is 1.125 for 40 hr games. If a game has an ETA of 40 hrs, currently a TA of 1800, this would make this game have a new TA of 2025.
    Now, let's say the time differentiation ratio is 1.25 for 100 hr games. If a game has an ETA of 100 hrs, currently a TA of 2500, this would make this game have a new TA of 3150.
    Under the old system, You could have played 3 <30 min games and earned more TA than this 100 hr game. Using similar setup as above using this newer system, you'd have to play 6+ quick games to still match the new TA. IMO, the ratio would be more severe for quicker games to more accurately reflect the time/difficulty needed (or not needed) compared to most games. The reduction in TA for quick games is imo the primary means that helps balance the difference between them and other standard games (and helps reduce the impact of the 5000GS updates as well). The ratios for time above the equilibrium threshold should be smaller, so as to not deviate too far away from how much difficulty contributes to the score (100+ hr games should NOT multiply the current existing score by something like 5, for example).
    I'd also like to point out, making TA for these quick games 0 is, imo, pointless. It doesn't give a means to move yourself forward on the TA ladder. With the methodology above, it would still allow you to move up the ladder, just not nearly as fast as the current rate, and there is less (but not 0) incentive to use these quick games.
    As for the various Site scores, I don't think there is just one that is an end all, be all to reflect on impressiveness. Ratio helps paint a picture, for sure, but it has it's own inherent flaws as well. For example, gamer A likes to play challenging games and cares about ratio, but also plays highly rated AA & AAA games (likely has ratio around a 2.0), gamer B cares only about high ratio and plays only high difficulty, high ratio games but excludes the excellent AA & AAA games worth <2000 (likely has ratio around a 3.0) Let's use Elden Ring (one of the highest rated games on site) as an example. Gamer A would play Elden ring (currently 1541 TA, or 1.51 ratio) which would decrease his ratio (technically a penalty against this player). Gamer B would quite likely skip playing this game, as it would negatively impact their ratio. They may end up playing a higher difficulty game that isn't rated well, but because it will add to their ratio.
    Looking at someone like Celtic Force, a current ratio of 1.82, there are plenty of gamer with much higher ratio. However, with a completion rate that rounds to 100%, a TA site score of 37, over 2000+ games completed, and plenty of insanely hard completions, he's likely one of the most skillful gamers on the site. I'd argue, imo, that this is much more impressive than someone who's played 100 games, but has an average of 2.5 or even 3.0 ratio. Ratio is an average; there are those who have quite a few insanely hard completions under their belt, yet have less than 2.0 ratio simply due to the large amount of quick, low ratio games to add to gamerscore, which vastly lowers this ratio.
    I would say the most accurate current site statistic to gauge impressiveness (as a single statistic by itself) would be either the TA difference leaderboard or a standardized score leaderboard. Both scores take into consideration not only the difficulty ratio of the achievements earned, but also the sheer amount of achievements earned over time. Standardized score can be inflated by games with large amounts of achievements (like 100+ achievements), but this doesn't happen too often. Of course, it typically gives more value to games like AAA games (typically have around 50 achievements) and less to many indie games (typically have 10-15 achievements).
    I personally can't think of a means in which TA difference can be exploited. Both systems give little value to the majority of quick, easy completions and give more value to more standard games like AA & AAA games while scaling forward (if you earn more achievements, you are moving forward on leaderboard unlike purely just ratio which can go down by simply playing games).

    I've played a ton of "shovelware" indie games in my time on this site. Personally, I'd rather not, but I DO want to at least somewhat compete in terms of the standard GS. The issue, like some have pointed out, is that if you want to truly compete in this statistic, and be competitive in comparison, you have no choice but to play these games. The sheer amount being released, along with all the updates to GS being added, are diluting the value of GS. I view this similarly as with money. With a large but limited amount released, you can have a reasonable value for your money or GS. Print trillions of bills (or quick easy games) into the ecosystem and it vastly devalues your money (or GS) unless you adjust the value of the money/other goods.
    For those who care about GS metric, you have to play these games to compete, even if they aren't fun for you, yet we contribute to the devaluation of GS overall. I, and I'm sure many of the higher positioned people, would like to see less of the games being released. Not all of them, mind you, just not hundreds and hundreds of them in a given year. I'd like to see MS implement a system to help differentiate between these types of games, in terms of achievements, and other games. The 200 GS standard like in years past comes to mind (400 GS or 500GS I think would be fine). I'd say a developer/publisher would have to provide an estimated time of completion, in good faith, to determine if the game is a 400/500 GS game or a 1000GS game. For a 400/500 GS game, title updates would have to also be 400/500 GS, not the base 1000 GS. If found to break this good faith, then Microsoft would take actions, whatever they be.
    I know this was a long-winded post, but I believe a few "simple" tweaks could better tweak these systems to better reflect, imo, a large consensus of gamers' thoughts. Everyone is entitled to play games the way they want, as long as it doesn't negatively impact other people. Not everyone will agree with the points I've made above.
    If anyone actually reads this whole thing, please keep the comments civil & mannerly.
  • Slayer ReigningSlayer Reigning3,165,229
    Posted on 02 April 23 at 22:51
    The Allslayer said:
    Slayer Reigning said:
    The Allslayer said:
    GusM60Patton said:
    Do you and slayer reigning always do everything together? Stop holding hands and brigading, it’s pathetic.

    Majority of you all are guilty of easy completions or following a guide or boosting with friends and killing each other to grind, and you want to draw lines on imaginary points, when it becomes ok and when it becomes wrong. It’s gate keeping and akin to an echo chamber. Where is my ban you all keep saying I’m getting?

    Because you don’t run shit and you aren’t shit. You’re just another gamer with a complex trying to tell other people how to do shit when you aren’t perfect.

    Who cares? Why does this conversation matter? It sure won’t stop any game releases and it won’t affect anyone, might stress you out until you become unhealthy but that’s a blessing. Keep coming back
    Doesn't look like Slayer Reigning has even replied to you? And I don't think I've ever interacted with him besides accepting a friend request on here but ok?

    You seem very defensive for someone that doesn't care, all I said was you didn't play the game which is why you don't remember it. I don't do shit on PC so I have no idea if that is a game that TA allows such methods for or not.

    Investigations take like a couple weeks or something fyi, so nothing would be happening anytime soon assuming you were just reported in the last few days anyway.
    I guess this guy is still going, and wasn't his tag Krieg when I was replying?!

    Allslayer and I have a mutual love for Gears, plus his tag is great IMO cause it was a play on Allfather, with a great touch.
    You just blew my mind right now, nobody has ever made that connection before (not even me) laugh. I actually just nicked it from Warhammer 40k, sorry to disappoint redface
    Ohhhhh. Well now you have 2 reasons why your GT is badass.
    But now your Reign is over / And it's all up to me / I'm gonna show you what I mean
  • Slayer ReigningSlayer Reigning3,165,229
    Posted on 02 April 23 at 22:52
    Krieg#1238 said:
    Slayer Reigning said:
    The Allslayer said:
    GusM60Patton said:
    Do you and slayer reigning always do everything together? Stop holding hands and brigading, it’s pathetic.

    Majority of you all are guilty of easy completions or following a guide or boosting with friends and killing each other to grind, and you want to draw lines on imaginary points, when it becomes ok and when it becomes wrong. It’s gate keeping and akin to an echo chamber. Where is my ban you all keep saying I’m getting?

    Because you don’t run shit and you aren’t shit. You’re just another gamer with a complex trying to tell other people how to do shit when you aren’t perfect.

    Who cares? Why does this conversation matter? It sure won’t stop any game releases and it won’t affect anyone, might stress you out until you become unhealthy but that’s a blessing. Keep coming back
    Doesn't look like Slayer Reigning has even replied to you? And I don't think I've ever interacted with him besides accepting a friend request on here but ok?

    You seem very defensive for someone that doesn't care, all I said was you didn't play the game which is why you don't remember it. I don't do shit on PC so I have no idea if that is a game that TA allows such methods for or not.

    Investigations take like a couple weeks or something fyi, so nothing would be happening anytime soon assuming you were just reported in the last few days anyway.
    I guess this guy is still going, and wasn't his tag Krieg when I was replying?!

    Allslayer and I have a mutual love for Gears, plus his tag is great IMO cause it was a play on Allfather, with a great touch.
    I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but please don't associate me with this person. They're slightly unhinged.
    Honestly my bad. I only remembered seeing Grey in the gamer picture. Apologies!
    But now your Reign is over / And it's all up to me / I'm gonna show you what I mean
  • InsipidEyeInsipidEye950,910
    Posted on 02 April 23 at 23:06
    Honestly I would love to see the indie games return to Xbox like on the 360. I dont want to run this point into the ground because it will have been mentioned already but these games really run the risk of devaluing what a lot of people started achievement hunting for. The games that these developers release are fun little titles that some will enjoy but for the most part are a money grab to essentially buy 1000g and I am pretty sure the devs are aware of this. I hope in the future Microsoft focuses a bit more on strengthening the achievement system again to stop it from turning into Steam Achievements 2.0
    "We live to make the impossible possible, that is our focus" FFXIII
  • Sensei NeoSensei Neo1,680,881
    Posted on 02 April 23 at 23:20
    Disaster Averted
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 03 April 23 at 00:24
    Krieg#1238 said:
    Slayer Reigning said:
    The Allslayer said:
    GusM60Patton said:
    Do you and slayer reigning always do everything together? Stop holding hands and brigading, it’s pathetic.

    Majority of you all are guilty of easy completions or following a guide or boosting with friends and killing each other to grind, and you want to draw lines on imaginary points, when it becomes ok and when it becomes wrong. It’s gate keeping and akin to an echo chamber. Where is my ban you all keep saying I’m getting?

    Because you don’t run shit and you aren’t shit. You’re just another gamer with a complex trying to tell other people how to do shit when you aren’t perfect.

    Who cares? Why does this conversation matter? It sure won’t stop any game releases and it won’t affect anyone, might stress you out until you become unhealthy but that’s a blessing. Keep coming back
    Doesn't look like Slayer Reigning has even replied to you? And I don't think I've ever interacted with him besides accepting a friend request on here but ok?

    You seem very defensive for someone that doesn't care, all I said was you didn't play the game which is why you don't remember it. I don't do shit on PC so I have no idea if that is a game that TA allows such methods for or not.

    Investigations take like a couple weeks or something fyi, so nothing would be happening anytime soon assuming you were just reported in the last few days anyway.
    I guess this guy is still going, and wasn't his tag Krieg when I was replying?!

    Allslayer and I have a mutual love for Gears, plus his tag is great IMO cause it was a play on Allfather, with a great touch.
    I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but please don't associate me with this person. They're slightly unhinged.
    You associate by responding, fool.
    GusM60Patton
  • VudixVudix4,296,537
    Posted on 03 April 23 at 01:36
    S GT said:
    Can you give a basic insight on how to publish a game on the WIN10/XB store and the associated costs? do i need a publisher or could i self publish and have my games have achievements too
    Yes. Please private message me and I’ll give you my discord contact info. I’d rather it be a conversation so I can quickly answer questions/concerns.
    Vudix: Game Developer; Acquisitions Manager; CEO; Soldier.
  • FoogaFooga2,507,560
  • The AllslayerThe Allslayer1,395,664
    Posted on 03 April 23 at 08:42
    Luna Invictus4 said:
    snip
    Problem with that is where are the completion times coming from? Estimated completion times that you manually put in yourself? Yeah I'm sure everyone is going to be totally honest when they have an incentive to lie. The time played stat from Xbox itself? Not exactly reliable either and can still be manipulated too especially for games that have a low number of players and speaking of all the games with low player count wouldn't really have enough data for this even if people weren't trying to game the system.

    Slayer Reigning said:
    Ohhhhh. Well now you have 2 reasons why your GT is badass.
    .Yeah man, I like it.
  • byndfitalitybyndfitality447,811
    Posted on 03 April 23 at 14:46
    Came Too Fast said:
    Idk why everyone can't just enjoy what they enjoy. Looking at other people's plates and being mad that they're eating McDonald's (shovelware) while you're eating steak (AAA titles) is just dumb. You're both eating. You're mad because they got a full belly for $5 while you spent $30 on your steak.
    Play the games. Just play. At the end of the day, just be content with who you are and what your stats prove to yourself. It doesn't matter if you got 200k GS by only playing AAA titles while someone spent a week getting 200k GS playing easy titles. There's no rewards (for the most part). You aren't missing out on money or prizes. Comparison is the thief of joy!
    This might be the most accurate analogy I have seen. Let me have my McDonalds and be happy! I'm not mad at your steak!
  • XtowersXtowers1,080,648
  • Posted on 03 April 23 at 16:19
    Only a complete addict would buy the same game more than once for pointless gamerscore (buying stacks of the same game). Weak minds are easy to milk for cash, conning you into spending what the game costs more than once just to play the same single game over and over lol I love it.
  • VudixVudix4,296,537
    Posted on 03 April 23 at 17:52
    Xtowers said:
    I find it a little funny that Mr. TrueAchievement himself weighed in on it, decidedly against easy Gamerscore title updates: https://twitter.com/richstone99/status/1641512855798177816?s...
    Funny how? It seems he’s likely taking the same stance myself and others in industry are. We’re getting to a point where people are selling points first with the game as an afterthought. He’s just being a responsible platform holder and standing up for the right thing.

    He’s also in the position of ‘damned if you do/damned if you don’t.’ I’ve seen it time and time again where he gets called out for not weighing in or choosing to weigh in. He really can’t win either way because someone will complain about his stance.
    Vudix: Game Developer; Acquisitions Manager; CEO; Soldier.
  • S GTS GT604,297
    Posted on 03 April 23 at 19:38
    Sicilian Sinner said:
    Only a complete addict would buy the same game more than once for pointless gamerscore (buying stacks of the same game). Weak minds are easy to milk for cash, conning you into spending what the game costs more than once just to play the same single game over and over lol I love it.
    bruh enjoying mymaite toast
  • Johnny SinisterJohnny Sinister1,993,908
  • XtowersXtowers1,080,648
    Posted on 03 April 23 at 21:30
    Vudix said:
    Xtowers said:
    I find it a little funny that Mr. TrueAchievement himself weighed in on it, decidedly against easy Gamerscore title updates: https://twitter.com/richstone99/status/1641512855798177816?s...
    Funny how? It seems he’s likely taking the same stance myself and others in industry are. We’re getting to a point where people are selling points first with the game as an afterthought. He’s just being a responsible platform holder and standing up for the right thing.

    He’s also in the position of ‘damned if you do/damned if you don’t.’ I’ve seen it time and time again where he gets called out for not weighing in or choosing to weigh in. He really can’t win either way because someone will complain about his stance.
    Johnny Sinister said:
    Xtowers said:
    I find it a little funny that Mr. TrueAchievement himself weighed in on it, decidedly against easy Gamerscore title updates: https://twitter.com/richstone99/status/1641512855798177816?s...
    I don't see how that is funny.

    The dude literally made an entire website that created a new metric for gamerscore because he felt that it wasn't fair that easy gamerscore had the same value as tougher games.

    https://www.trueachievements.com/help/aboutus
    It's funny because the system he created is failing to properly value these title updates. Literally if TrueAchievements did what it was intended he should have no issue with how these achievements get valued on the site. Now I understand his position, I acknowledge the system isn't perfect, and I have no proposition for making it better, but I just find it a bit ironic. So yeah, a little funny.
  • Johnny SinisterJohnny Sinister1,993,908
    Posted on 03 April 23 at 22:17, Edited on 03 April 23 at 22:18 by Johnny Sinister
    Xtowers said:
    Vudix said:
    Xtowers said:
    I find it a little funny that Mr. TrueAchievement himself weighed in on it, decidedly against easy Gamerscore title updates: https://twitter.com/richstone99/status/1641512855798177816?s...
    Funny how? It seems he’s likely taking the same stance myself and others in industry are. We’re getting to a point where people are selling points first with the game as an afterthought. He’s just being a responsible platform holder and standing up for the right thing.

    He’s also in the position of ‘damned if you do/damned if you don’t.’ I’ve seen it time and time again where he gets called out for not weighing in or choosing to weigh in. He really can’t win either way because someone will complain about his stance.
    Johnny Sinister said:
    Xtowers said:
    I find it a little funny that Mr. TrueAchievement himself weighed in on it, decidedly against easy Gamerscore title updates: https://twitter.com/richstone99/status/1641512855798177816?s...
    I don't see how that is funny.

    The dude literally made an entire website that created a new metric for gamerscore because he felt that it wasn't fair that easy gamerscore had the same value as tougher games.

    https://www.trueachievements.com/help/aboutus
    It's funny because the system he created is failing to properly value these title updates. Literally if TrueAchievements did what it was intended he should have no issue with how these achievements get valued on the site. Now I understand his position, I acknowledge the system isn't perfect, and I have no proposition for making it better, but I just find it a bit ironic. So yeah, a little funny.
    I suppose.

    But I don't know that it should be considered unusual or hypocratic for someone to draw lines, especially given the context of the site.

    Too many people accuse people of hypocrisy when changing views (can't tell how many times I have seen easy gamerscore arguments challenged because the person had, like 1 Ratalaika game on their profile).

    Too much of this community gets caught in this trap mentality that since we have already started trending in a direction, we might as well keep sinking lower.

    You might be surprised at where people drew the line 10 years, then 5 years ago, and where they draw it now.

    People laugh at the idea that Xbox achievement system will be as pointless as the Steam or PS trophy system, but keep fucking around and find out.

    Btw, this post is more intended for the community as a whole, not you specifically.
  • S GTS GT604,297
    Posted on 03 April 23 at 23:33
    I think instead of overhauling the TA system we should have an efficiency leaderboard that rewards easy game speedrunning. Since almost all ez titles can track time why not have a Gamerscore per hour leaderboard or ratio
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