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Another huge wave of easy 1,000G title updates rolls out across 34 Xbox games

  • Posted on 06 January 24 at 04:59
    I wish I had popcorn while reading all this. It had it all: comedy, drama, logic, lack of logic, truly a masterpiece laugh
    Where a difference of opinion = Slander
  • MC PHILABUSTAMC PHILABUSTA2,353,450
    Posted on 06 January 24 at 11:48
    Just too much ! Unneeded updates ! I feel like it's ruined achievements and gamer. Why do only shitty indie games have them and games like cod or any larger titles get jack shit ?
  • Slayer ReigningSlayer Reigning3,393,163
    Posted on 06 January 24 at 13:18
    MC PHILABUSTA said:
    Just too much ! Unneeded updates ! I feel like it's ruined achievements and gamer. Why do only shitty indie games have them and games like cod or any larger titles get jack shit ?
    Again cause most devs/pubs don't care to support the achievement system beyond their required list for release
    But now your Reign is over / And it's all up to me / I'm gonna show you what I mean
  • The Wicked SoulThe Wicked Soul2,019,404
    Posted on 06 January 24 at 13:30
    Slayer Reigning said:
    MC PHILABUSTA said:
    Just too much ! Unneeded updates ! I feel like it's ruined achievements and gamer. Why do only shitty indie games have them and games like cod or any larger titles get jack shit ?
    Again cause most devs/pubs don't care to support the achievement system beyond their required list for release
    I wouldn't say they don't care, those lists have us play the full game and actually engage with the game. They aren't needed and sometimes when the game gets DLC they add more achievements cause it adds more content. It's almost they are confident in their game instead of having to make people play over 4 updates.
  • Slayer ReigningSlayer Reigning3,393,163
    Posted on 06 January 24 at 13:51
    The Wicked Soul said:
    Slayer Reigning said:
    MC PHILABUSTA said:
    Just too much ! Unneeded updates ! I feel like it's ruined achievements and gamer. Why do only shitty indie games have them and games like cod or any larger titles get jack shit ?
    Again cause most devs/pubs don't care to support the achievement system beyond their required list for release
    I wouldn't say they don't care, those lists have us play the full game and actually engage with the game. They aren't needed and sometimes when the game gets DLC they add more achievements cause it adds more content. It's almost they are confident in their game instead of having to make people play over 4 updates.
    Well they are creative and care enough to have an initial list. But there are plenty of games that do DLC and Content Updates with no further achievements.

    Some do, most don't.
    But now your Reign is over / And it's all up to me / I'm gonna show you what I mean
  • ivozaivoza444,239
    Posted on 06 January 24 at 16:28, Edited on 06 January 24 at 16:37 by ivoza
    People will hate on publishers like Eastasiasoft until their last dying breath, but at least they aren’t putting out games like Aabs Animals and the Beautiful Sakura series
  • ivozaivoza444,239
    Posted on 06 January 24 at 16:41
    MC PHILABUSTA said:
    Just too much ! Unneeded updates ! I feel like it's ruined achievements and gamer. Why do only shitty indie games have them and games like cod or any larger titles get jack shit ?
    Blame Xbox for forcing every game to have a base 1000g and poorly monitoring title updates
  • Fox AndokaiFox Andokai993,973
    Posted on 06 January 24 at 18:49, Edited on 06 January 24 at 18:49 by Fox Andokai
    I spent 3500€ + on League of Legends just for skins in the last 10 years and putting this amount of money in gamerscore is less waste imo.
    Also Playstation seems to be much worse when a game alone has 6 or more versions.
  • Latinfla4Latinfla41,498,655
    Posted on 06 January 24 at 20:24, Edited on 06 January 24 at 20:27 by Latinfla4
    Johnny Sinister said:
    Latinfla4, I know I have had debated with you in the past about this, but I going to have another go. I am not trying to sound like a broken record, or be dismissive of your opinions, but I feel that some of your outlooks on the situation are missing the point (and not just you, but other gamers as well, which is why I am taking the time to write this). While I certainly respect others' opinions, cases like this are based around a structured system that has established rules, regulations, and guidelines. Sometimes opinions in regards to these systems are simply fallible and creates bad practices and misinformation. I am simply trying to discourage this type of information.

    Latinfla4 said:
    They make their money and in return actually offer games that don't have achievements locked behind online only servers, buggy platinum trophies, or unobtainables that don't make it past quality control...honestly more devs should follow suit such as ratalaika but they got scared even though they were the most common "easy game" dev for gamerscore.
    First and foremost, we need to understand the purpose of Xbox Live achievements, gamerscore, and the resultant achievement hunting hobby.

    The gamerscore system is a niche sub-hobby of video gaming and is merit based by design. This is NOT an opinion, it is and always has been the intent of the system. Every definition associated with the hobby is indicative of this.

    One major problem is that there are people (certain publishers particularly) that have seen the success of the gamerscore system and realized that they could exploit it for financial gain.

    Yes, these publishers manage to sell gamerscore (also not an opinion, as these publishers have admitted as much). As such, their main focus is a working achievement list.
    One positive thing I can say about these publishers is that they are very good about having working achievements and are quick to fix broken achievements when they do occur. Of course, when your entire business model is centered around selling achievements, it is essential that they work.
    I do like how you threw the term 'quality control' in terms of achievement coding, while referring to a system that dismisses quality control of the actual games. This is also not an opinion.
    There is a reason that most gamerscore-for-sale games are bad. It is by design. The process of scouting talented developers is a strategy used by publishers looking to sell games. Since the publishers we are discussing are in the business of selling gamerscore, the games themselves are not a priority. As such, it is quicker and more cost effective to seek out games that are lower quality, as there is no natural competition among game publishers.

    In eastasiasoft's defense, their library has much better quality control than that of other publishers (namely Ratalaika). Their games still aren't the quality that should warrant release on a premium gaming marketplace, and I have no doubt that without the sales from achievement addicts, they wouldn't be published at all. However, their Title Updates are quite scummy and a direct result of lost sales going to other gamerscore exploiters. And I think the fact that Ratalaika ultimately passed up on this strategy should be an indication of how bad it actually is.

    The big takeaway though is that this is an exploitative system that tip-toes around (and sometimes outright breaks) MS policy for achievements. That's right, for those that aren't aware, there are rules you are supposed to abide by when publishing an Xbox achievement list.
    I will let you guys read it for yourselves, but I can tell you that pretty much the entire ChiliDog Interactive library and any game that allows you to unlock achievements with mod menus or console commands is in direct violation of these policies. (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/pol...)


    Latinfla4 said:
    In theory all the title updates offer replayability because the owner plays through the game again at varying lengths to get more gamerscore and is a nice bonus to an already purchased product.
    The purpose any DLC/Title Update is to offer replayability. However, when you consider that (as previously mentioned) these games weren't sold for their playability in the first place, and the TU achievements are designed to limit gameplay as much as possible without (arguably) violating XRs, I am not sure these games are a prime example. I am sure you know this, because you strategically used the term 'varying lengths' when referring to time investment (or lack thereof). I agree that it is a 'nice bonus' to an already purchased product, but in the exploitative gamerscore-for-sale sense.

    Latinfla4 said:
    In some cases the devs even include the xbox and PC version in the same bundle for the same price such as swapshot, agriculture, and lily...name other devs who give you both stack of games for the same low price and not ask for remake/remaster money?
    Yes, when you are in the business of selling gamerscore, incentives like this help push products. Similar to that of a BOGO in a retail store. They are using throwaway shovelware titles as product and using copy and paste achievement lists for multiple version, so it isn't like this is some elaborate undertaking to manufacture.

    Latinfla4 said:
    It is akin to the old arcade style games where gamers looked for bragging rights playing the same game levels repeatedly to place their initials on the games leaderboard.
    I am not really sure how this has anything to do with this publisher, practice, or conversation. However, I would be more than happy to revisit if you could elaborate.

    Latinfla4 said:
    Yes I do it for the gamerscore as well and love it...I mean we are on an achievement hunting website comment forum...happy gaming everyone
    Here is the main issue. You use the term achievement hunting. As I mentioned in the opening, achievement hunting is a niche-hobby with an established structure and intent. When this intent is disregarded, I would argue that what we are doing in regards to these exploits does not fall under the umbrella of 'achievement hunting'.

    I know people don't like to hear this, and I assure you that this is not gatekeeping, but amassing gamerscore and achievement hunting are not the same thing. It is entirely possible to utilize the hobby incorrectly. And I fear that is what has been happening.
    First of all thanks for the well thought out discussion you have posted and value your opinion on this debate as it is interesting.I will try to post in order of my counterpoints.

    Yes the quality control is outstanding and makes me sad that smaller devs do a better job with cheevo unlocks and customer service than bigger aaa companies which can learn from them...notice how many of them refuse to put patches out to fix the problems unless sales are hurting?
    No online only cheevos or platinum cheevos are also great for the consumer as well as the starting price usually 3.99 on preorder or closer to 5 dollars afterwards and usually a solid entertainment factor if the gamer continues to play for the genuine challenge after the achievement pops(currently I am doing 100 percent completion on daggerfall League of evil and zombies with its souls like gameplay well past the 1000 gamerscore)
    If others don't take full advantage of the game they bought after the gs that is on them and not on the devs.
    Ratalaika/xitilon/others prefer to sell you the sequel (reskined) sequel as a separate transaction which is why I like the bogo deal Eastasiasoft is doing with giving you both the xbox and PC stack for the same price...you can't argue that is a good deal regardless of how easy or hard a game is...it's smart retail so more people buy their games like any good business
    The arcade leaderboard example is to show gamers would play the same levels over and over of a game they "beat" for nothing other than a bragging rights leaderboard score which is what current title updates do just that you are collecting gamerscore for doing various tasks or completing new levels...I agree the ones that are jump 50 times or whatever are the worst of the title updates.
    Mod menus and console commands are a different discussion but those don't fall on just these games as others like subnautica surviving mars etc. were approved and promoted on game pass.
    The last point is achievement hunting and gaining gamerscore/ratio are the same thing as you need to hunt/gain achievements to improve your gamerscore or ratio with rare unlocks...I was not saying achievements are either easy or hard to get. A more valid argument would be that achievement hunting and completion rate are different since you can get various achievements but not complete the game depending on the achievement list.
    I dont think the hobby is being misused as Gamepass is just another marketing tool for smaller devs to sell their games on a bigger platform... what i find interesting is that people don't get angry about the easy completions there? I assure you I know people who sub gamepass for months here and there and knock out the easy game completions as well as others who get it for the day one drops and harder games.
    People game depending on their interests in this hobby and find joy in different things...just thankful this hobby is still alive and I can use easy games as an entry point and to build memories for my younger family members (honestly I prefer an easier Eastasiasoft game to play with them than going through another reskin of paw patrol or peppa pig on gamepass that is misusing this hobby not giving more gamerscore for a previous purchase)
    Think that is all happy gaming everyone 😃
    if u have ez games on your gamercard dont b a hypocrite and stop others from enjoying the same games and try not 2 spend more than 4 dollars for them
  • Latinfla4Latinfla41,498,655
    Posted on 06 January 24 at 20:30
    ivoza said:
    MC PHILABUSTA said:
    Just too much ! Unneeded updates ! I feel like it's ruined achievements and gamer. Why do only shitty indie games have them and games like cod or any larger titles get jack shit ?
    Blame Xbox for forcing every game to have a base 1000g and poorly monitoring title updates
    Because call of duty devs would rather you buy a new game than give you gamerscore for something you already purchased in a title update.
    if u have ez games on your gamercard dont b a hypocrite and stop others from enjoying the same games and try not 2 spend more than 4 dollars for them
  • Latinfla4Latinfla41,498,655
    Posted on 06 January 24 at 20:56
    weLtaLLcLoud said:
    Slayer Reigning said:
    weLtaLLcLoud said:
    Nate1528 said:
    SprinkyDink said:
    vSully said:
    weLtaLLcLoud said:
    Nate1528, it's you that need help...popping achievement after achievement whenever a title update comes around...What I want to know is why?
    I have already explained this to you yet you choose to ignore what people say in their responses and go off on some unhinged nonsense over and over.

    Nate has spent well over a decade partaking in a hobby that involves video games, achievements, and a certain level of competition. Competition between himself and other people to climb the site’s primary leaderboard.

    The landscape has shifted over the years forcing Nate and anyone else who wants to continue to build upon everything they’ve done for upwards of 15 years and maintain their standing in this competition to play all of these shit games that hemorrhage gamer score.

    Anybody who stops playing these games can’t possibly keep up with everybody else because everybody else is playing these games.

    You clearly don’t give a crap about competition or statistics or anything else, so maybe you can’t understand the terrible position that Nate and other people who want to play for competition are now in because of the endless snowball of these garbage games.

    “Just stop playing this garbage” is really easy for you to say when you have nothing vested. A lot of people have a ton of time, effort, energy, and money invested into years and years and years of competition that has been diluted by shitty games in a way that nobody could have foreseen.
    That’s like saying in order for me to win gtasc I need to basically only play high ratio gamepass games as that’s the majority of points nowadays, but I don’t want to be forced to buy gamepass so gamepass needs to be not allowed in the competition so I can continue to compete. I wanted to be number 1 in gs in Virginia and I gave up on that because I’m not willing to buy all these games but the number one guy is. Oh well. I will move on. But to say that Nate is forced to buy these games is simply not true. If these games didn’t exist you argument would be that he is being forced to play 2 hour Disney games or racing with Ryan games in order to compete. At the end of the day he’s not being forced to do anything.
    If the current paid-completion situation gets much worse, I will definitely stop. For example, if it became as bad as Playstation, there is absolutely no way I would continue in my leaderboard goals, they are literally just directly paying for trophies. If you have a hobby for ten years and then you notice it slowly changing over time in a way you don't like or agree with, would you offer no pushback at all so that you don't stop doing the hobby you've enjoyed doing for so long? It's also not like I'm complaining to Microsoft or developers or anything, I'm just posting my opinion whenever this topic arises again. It's also worth noting that I believe most people in this community don't want the paid completions or title updates either, at least that's what all the polls on the site reflect, and the majority of comments. I don't typically use this argument but Vsully likes to use me as an example, I just think it is bad in general to use the backdrop of a game to really be a $5 1000G achievement pack.
    Nate you have about 2,400 completions...I bet you that 1,000 of those completions are easy games...Most of those easy games are about $5...if you get them in a sale they are much lower...so I will subtract $2 from that..so you spend about $3,000 on easy games...Mind you most of those easy games don't come in a bundle pack...Let me know Nate how much money per month do u spend in a month on easy games and how much is the grand total of money did you spend on easy games...I bet you all he spends over $20 per month and the grand total it's over $3,000 dollars...or even more... shock
    $3000 is a lot?

    My Smite MTX put that to shame laugh
    $3,000+ dollars is a hella lot of money for which Nate thinks is a hobby...
    You know what you can spend $3,000 on...

    You can get 1 amazon item that cost $3,000
    ^ https://www.amazon.com/Electronics-3-000-above/s?rh=n%3A1722...
    You can buy 6 xbox series x or 6 fat ps5's for $3,000
    You can buy about 42 AAA calibur games...AAA calibur games cost around 70 dollars now...so...70 times 42=$2,940
    You can go to mcdonalds and buy 500 big mac meals for $3,000...
    You can get 1,000 lottery tickets...with $3,000...lotto tickets cost $2, but you can get the Megaplier for $3
    You can buy 3,000 dollar store items with $3,000...
    You forgot taxes...are their actually dollar stores left?
    The only one that did have dollar items was dollar tree and they are 1.25 each or 3 items for the cost of one preorder Eastasiasoft game bundle with two games with title updates...the bargains🤔
    if u have ez games on your gamercard dont b a hypocrite and stop others from enjoying the same games and try not 2 spend more than 4 dollars for them
  • weLtaLLcLoudweLtaLLcLoud589,021
    Posted on 07 January 24 at 04:23
    Latinfla4 said:
    weLtaLLcLoud said:
    Slayer Reigning said:
    weLtaLLcLoud said:
    Nate1528 said:
    SprinkyDink said:
    vSully said:
    weLtaLLcLoud said:
    Nate1528, it's you that need help...popping achievement after achievement whenever a title update comes around...What I want to know is why?
    I have already explained this to you yet you choose to ignore what people say in their responses and go off on some unhinged nonsense over and over.

    Nate has spent well over a decade partaking in a hobby that involves video games, achievements, and a certain level of competition. Competition between himself and other people to climb the site’s primary leaderboard.

    The landscape has shifted over the years forcing Nate and anyone else who wants to continue to build upon everything they’ve done for upwards of 15 years and maintain their standing in this competition to play all of these shit games that hemorrhage gamer score.

    Anybody who stops playing these games can’t possibly keep up with everybody else because everybody else is playing these games.

    You clearly don’t give a crap about competition or statistics or anything else, so maybe you can’t understand the terrible position that Nate and other people who want to play for competition are now in because of the endless snowball of these garbage games.

    “Just stop playing this garbage” is really easy for you to say when you have nothing vested. A lot of people have a ton of time, effort, energy, and money invested into years and years and years of competition that has been diluted by shitty games in a way that nobody could have foreseen.
    That’s like saying in order for me to win gtasc I need to basically only play high ratio gamepass games as that’s the majority of points nowadays, but I don’t want to be forced to buy gamepass so gamepass needs to be not allowed in the competition so I can continue to compete. I wanted to be number 1 in gs in Virginia and I gave up on that because I’m not willing to buy all these games but the number one guy is. Oh well. I will move on. But to say that Nate is forced to buy these games is simply not true. If these games didn’t exist you argument would be that he is being forced to play 2 hour Disney games or racing with Ryan games in order to compete. At the end of the day he’s not being forced to do anything.
    If the current paid-completion situation gets much worse, I will definitely stop. For example, if it became as bad as Playstation, there is absolutely no way I would continue in my leaderboard goals, they are literally just directly paying for trophies. If you have a hobby for ten years and then you notice it slowly changing over time in a way you don't like or agree with, would you offer no pushback at all so that you don't stop doing the hobby you've enjoyed doing for so long? It's also not like I'm complaining to Microsoft or developers or anything, I'm just posting my opinion whenever this topic arises again. It's also worth noting that I believe most people in this community don't want the paid completions or title updates either, at least that's what all the polls on the site reflect, and the majority of comments. I don't typically use this argument but Vsully likes to use me as an example, I just think it is bad in general to use the backdrop of a game to really be a $5 1000G achievement pack.
    Nate you have about 2,400 completions...I bet you that 1,000 of those completions are easy games...Most of those easy games are about $5...if you get them in a sale they are much lower...so I will subtract $2 from that..so you spend about $3,000 on easy games...Mind you most of those easy games don't come in a bundle pack...Let me know Nate how much money per month do u spend in a month on easy games and how much is the grand total of money did you spend on easy games...I bet you all he spends over $20 per month and the grand total it's over $3,000 dollars...or even more... shock
    $3000 is a lot?

    My Smite MTX put that to shame laugh
    $3,000+ dollars is a hella lot of money for which Nate thinks is a hobby...
    You know what you can spend $3,000 on...

    You can get 1 amazon item that cost $3,000
    ^ https://www.amazon.com/Electronics-3-000-above/s?rh=n%3A1722...
    You can buy 6 xbox series x or 6 fat ps5's for $3,000
    You can buy about 42 AAA calibur games...AAA calibur games cost around 70 dollars now...so...70 times 42=$2,940
    You can go to mcdonalds and buy 500 big mac meals for $3,000...
    You can get 1,000 lottery tickets...with $3,000...lotto tickets cost $2, but you can get the Megaplier for $3
    You can buy 3,000 dollar store items with $3,000...
    You forgot taxes...are their actually dollar stores left?
    The only one that did have dollar items was dollar tree and they are 1.25 each or 3 items for the cost of one preorder Eastasiasoft game bundle with two games with title updates...the bargains🤔
    Yeah, you're right I forgot about taxes and the price hike of the dollar tree...My Bad...Still alot of items..tho...
    weLtaLLcLoud
  • weLtaLLcLoudweLtaLLcLoud589,021
    Posted on 07 January 24 at 04:44, Edited on 07 January 24 at 05:57 by weLtaLLcLoud
    Latinfla4 said:
    Johnny Sinister said:
    Latinfla4, I know I have had debated with you in the past about this, but I going to have another go. I am not trying to sound like a broken record, or be dismissive of your opinions, but I feel that some of your outlooks on the situation are missing the point (and not just you, but other gamers as well, which is why I am taking the time to write this). While I certainly respect others' opinions, cases like this are based around a structured system that has established rules, regulations, and guidelines. Sometimes opinions in regards to these systems are simply fallible and creates bad practices and misinformation. I am simply trying to discourage this type of information.

    Latinfla4 said:
    They make their money and in return actually offer games that don't have achievements locked behind online only servers, buggy platinum trophies, or unobtainables that don't make it past quality control...honestly more devs should follow suit such as ratalaika but they got scared even though they were the most common "easy game" dev for gamerscore.
    First and foremost, we need to understand the purpose of Xbox Live achievements, gamerscore, and the resultant achievement hunting hobby.

    The gamerscore system is a niche sub-hobby of video gaming and is merit based by design. This is NOT an opinion, it is and always has been the intent of the system. Every definition associated with the hobby is indicative of this.

    One major problem is that there are people (certain publishers particularly) that have seen the success of the gamerscore system and realized that they could exploit it for financial gain.

    Yes, these publishers manage to sell gamerscore (also not an opinion, as these publishers have admitted as much). As such, their main focus is a working achievement list.
    One positive thing I can say about these publishers is that they are very good about having working achievements and are quick to fix broken achievements when they do occur. Of course, when your entire business model is centered around selling achievements, it is essential that they work.
    I do like how you threw the term 'quality control' in terms of achievement coding, while referring to a system that dismisses quality control of the actual games. This is also not an opinion.
    There is a reason that most gamerscore-for-sale games are bad. It is by design. The process of scouting talented developers is a strategy used by publishers looking to sell games. Since the publishers we are discussing are in the business of selling gamerscore, the games themselves are not a priority. As such, it is quicker and more cost effective to seek out games that are lower quality, as there is no natural competition among game publishers.

    In eastasiasoft's defense, their library has much better quality control than that of other publishers (namely Ratalaika). Their games still aren't the quality that should warrant release on a premium gaming marketplace, and I have no doubt that without the sales from achievement addicts, they wouldn't be published at all. However, their Title Updates are quite scummy and a direct result of lost sales going to other gamerscore exploiters. And I think the fact that Ratalaika ultimately passed up on this strategy should be an indication of how bad it actually is.

    The big takeaway though is that this is an exploitative system that tip-toes around (and sometimes outright breaks) MS policy for achievements. That's right, for those that aren't aware, there are rules you are supposed to abide by when publishing an Xbox achievement list.
    I will let you guys read it for yourselves, but I can tell you that pretty much the entire ChiliDog Interactive library and any game that allows you to unlock achievements with mod menus or console commands is in direct violation of these policies. (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/pol...)


    Latinfla4 said:
    In theory all the title updates offer replayability because the owner plays through the game again at varying lengths to get more gamerscore and is a nice bonus to an already purchased product.
    The purpose any DLC/Title Update is to offer replayability. However, when you consider that (as previously mentioned) these games weren't sold for their playability in the first place, and the TU achievements are designed to limit gameplay as much as possible without (arguably) violating XRs, I am not sure these games are a prime example. I am sure you know this, because you strategically used the term 'varying lengths' when referring to time investment (or lack thereof). I agree that it is a 'nice bonus' to an already purchased product, but in the exploitative gamerscore-for-sale sense.

    Latinfla4 said:
    In some cases the devs even include the xbox and PC version in the same bundle for the same price such as swapshot, agriculture, and lily...name other devs who give you both stack of games for the same low price and not ask for remake/remaster money?
    Yes, when you are in the business of selling gamerscore, incentives like this help push products. Similar to that of a BOGO in a retail store. They are using throwaway shovelware titles as product and using copy and paste achievement lists for multiple version, so it isn't like this is some elaborate undertaking to manufacture.

    Latinfla4 said:
    It is akin to the old arcade style games where gamers looked for bragging rights playing the same game levels repeatedly to place their initials on the games leaderboard.
    I am not really sure how this has anything to do with this publisher, practice, or conversation. However, I would be more than happy to revisit if you could elaborate.

    Latinfla4 said:
    Yes I do it for the gamerscore as well and love it...I mean we are on an achievement hunting website comment forum...happy gaming everyone
    Here is the main issue. You use the term achievement hunting. As I mentioned in the opening, achievement hunting is a niche-hobby with an established structure and intent. When this intent is disregarded, I would argue that what we are doing in regards to these exploits does not fall under the umbrella of 'achievement hunting'.

    I know people don't like to hear this, and I assure you that this is not gatekeeping, but amassing gamerscore and achievement hunting are not the same thing. It is entirely possible to utilize the hobby incorrectly. And I fear that is what has been happening.
    The arcade leaderboard example is to show gamers would play the same levels over and over of a game they "beat" for nothing other than a bragging rights leaderboard score which is what current title updates do just that you are collecting gamerscore for doing various tasks or completing new levels...I agree the ones that are jump 50 times or whatever are the worst of the title updates
    That's one thing I don't get I think these achievement from a game that I am currently playing...It's suppose to be a 200 hour game...grindy repetition ass game(like the jump x number of times, die x number of times)...

    Disney Dreamlight ValleyAnglerThe Angler achievement in Disney Dreamlight Valley worth 267 pointsCatch 1,800 fish


    Disney Dreamlight ValleyMinerThe Miner achievement in Disney Dreamlight Valley worth 228 pointsMine 1,800 times


    ^ Are much easier to get then

    these achievements where I have to put in work to get....
    ^

    Cake InvadersExterminator Bonus XThe Exterminator Bonus X achievement in Cake Invaders worth 305 pointsReach the 21th wave.


    Castle of no EscapeFriendship winsThe Friendship wins achievement in Castle of no Escape worth 123 pointsDon't kill any monsters (except the boss)


    It just kinda shows you that easy game's aren't that easy after all...
    weLtaLLcLoud
  • Johnny SinisterJohnny Sinister2,054,401
    Posted on 07 January 24 at 06:24
    weLtaLLcLoud said:
    Latinfla4 said:
    Johnny Sinister said:
    Latinfla4, I know I have had debated with you in the past about this, but I going to have another go. I am not trying to sound like a broken record, or be dismissive of your opinions, but I feel that some of your outlooks on the situation are missing the point (and not just you, but other gamers as well, which is why I am taking the time to write this). While I certainly respect others' opinions, cases like this are based around a structured system that has established rules, regulations, and guidelines. Sometimes opinions in regards to these systems are simply fallible and creates bad practices and misinformation. I am simply trying to discourage this type of information.

    Latinfla4 said:
    They make their money and in return actually offer games that don't have achievements locked behind online only servers, buggy platinum trophies, or unobtainables that don't make it past quality control...honestly more devs should follow suit such as ratalaika but they got scared even though they were the most common "easy game" dev for gamerscore.
    First and foremost, we need to understand the purpose of Xbox Live achievements, gamerscore, and the resultant achievement hunting hobby.

    The gamerscore system is a niche sub-hobby of video gaming and is merit based by design. This is NOT an opinion, it is and always has been the intent of the system. Every definition associated with the hobby is indicative of this.

    One major problem is that there are people (certain publishers particularly) that have seen the success of the gamerscore system and realized that they could exploit it for financial gain.

    Yes, these publishers manage to sell gamerscore (also not an opinion, as these publishers have admitted as much). As such, their main focus is a working achievement list.
    One positive thing I can say about these publishers is that they are very good about having working achievements and are quick to fix broken achievements when they do occur. Of course, when your entire business model is centered around selling achievements, it is essential that they work.
    I do like how you threw the term 'quality control' in terms of achievement coding, while referring to a system that dismisses quality control of the actual games. This is also not an opinion.
    There is a reason that most gamerscore-for-sale games are bad. It is by design. The process of scouting talented developers is a strategy used by publishers looking to sell games. Since the publishers we are discussing are in the business of selling gamerscore, the games themselves are not a priority. As such, it is quicker and more cost effective to seek out games that are lower quality, as there is no natural competition among game publishers.

    In eastasiasoft's defense, their library has much better quality control than that of other publishers (namely Ratalaika). Their games still aren't the quality that should warrant release on a premium gaming marketplace, and I have no doubt that without the sales from achievement addicts, they wouldn't be published at all. However, their Title Updates are quite scummy and a direct result of lost sales going to other gamerscore exploiters. And I think the fact that Ratalaika ultimately passed up on this strategy should be an indication of how bad it actually is.

    The big takeaway though is that this is an exploitative system that tip-toes around (and sometimes outright breaks) MS policy for achievements. That's right, for those that aren't aware, there are rules you are supposed to abide by when publishing an Xbox achievement list.
    I will let you guys read it for yourselves, but I can tell you that pretty much the entire ChiliDog Interactive library and any game that allows you to unlock achievements with mod menus or console commands is in direct violation of these policies. (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/pol...)


    Latinfla4 said:
    In theory all the title updates offer replayability because the owner plays through the game again at varying lengths to get more gamerscore and is a nice bonus to an already purchased product.
    The purpose any DLC/Title Update is to offer replayability. However, when you consider that (as previously mentioned) these games weren't sold for their playability in the first place, and the TU achievements are designed to limit gameplay as much as possible without (arguably) violating XRs, I am not sure these games are a prime example. I am sure you know this, because you strategically used the term 'varying lengths' when referring to time investment (or lack thereof). I agree that it is a 'nice bonus' to an already purchased product, but in the exploitative gamerscore-for-sale sense.

    Latinfla4 said:
    In some cases the devs even include the xbox and PC version in the same bundle for the same price such as swapshot, agriculture, and lily...name other devs who give you both stack of games for the same low price and not ask for remake/remaster money?
    Yes, when you are in the business of selling gamerscore, incentives like this help push products. Similar to that of a BOGO in a retail store. They are using throwaway shovelware titles as product and using copy and paste achievement lists for multiple version, so it isn't like this is some elaborate undertaking to manufacture.

    Latinfla4 said:
    It is akin to the old arcade style games where gamers looked for bragging rights playing the same game levels repeatedly to place their initials on the games leaderboard.
    I am not really sure how this has anything to do with this publisher, practice, or conversation. However, I would be more than happy to revisit if you could elaborate.

    Latinfla4 said:
    Yes I do it for the gamerscore as well and love it...I mean we are on an achievement hunting website comment forum...happy gaming everyone
    Here is the main issue. You use the term achievement hunting. As I mentioned in the opening, achievement hunting is a niche-hobby with an established structure and intent. When this intent is disregarded, I would argue that what we are doing in regards to these exploits does not fall under the umbrella of 'achievement hunting'.

    I know people don't like to hear this, and I assure you that this is not gatekeeping, but amassing gamerscore and achievement hunting are not the same thing. It is entirely possible to utilize the hobby incorrectly. And I fear that is what has been happening.
    The arcade leaderboard example is to show gamers would play the same levels over and over of a game they "beat" for nothing other than a bragging rights leaderboard score which is what current title updates do just that you are collecting gamerscore for doing various tasks or completing new levels...I agree the ones that are jump 50 times or whatever are the worst of the title updates
    That's one thing I don't get I think these achievement from a game that I am currently playing...It's suppose to be a 200 hour game...grindy repetition ass game(like the jump x number of times, die x number of times)...

    Disney Dreamlight ValleyAnglerThe Angler achievement in Disney Dreamlight Valley worth 267 pointsCatch 1,800 fish


    Disney Dreamlight ValleyMinerThe Miner achievement in Disney Dreamlight Valley worth 228 pointsMine 1,800 times


    ^ Are much easier to get then

    these achievements where I have to put in work to get....
    ^

    Cake InvadersExterminator Bonus XThe Exterminator Bonus X achievement in Cake Invaders worth 305 pointsReach the 21th wave.


    Castle of no EscapeFriendship winsThe Friendship wins achievement in Castle of no Escape worth 123 pointsDon't kill any monsters (except the boss)


    It just kinda shows you that easy game's aren't that easy after all...
    I am not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

    There is a distinct difference between easy games, and easy achievement lists. Also, the TA metrics are based on rarity, not necessarily difficulty, so comparing long grinds to skill based tasks is apples and oranges.

    The goal of the gamerscore-for-sale publishers is to make a list that is relatively easy (to unlock), to ensure the players can complete it. It is what you are paying for, after all. The actual difficutly of the games is not always a factor. For instance, you can take a game like 'Crypt of the Necrodancer', which is arguably the most difficult game on the site to complete, yet a publisher like Ratalaika could port it as is and yet create a customized achievement list that could be completed by virtually anyone in 30 minutes or less. So again, easy games =/= easy gamerscore.

    As far as your examples go, I am not sure they are great examples. For one, the examples you used as being 'easier' have a much lower unlock rate, meaning that they are rarer. Sure, it requires no effort to perform unskilled menial tasks over and over again, but the achievement unlock data would also suggest that given the same amount of time, players could gain the skills and muscle memory to complete the 'challenging' achievement at a rate higher than the one require grinding. Thus, still making the game (in this case, Cake Invaders) a statistically easier completion.

    Also, the 'Castle of No Escape' achievement is a bad example, as the game released before the publisher (Xitilon) was in the gamerscore-for-sale market. The scores for that game are not reliable due to the fact that the publisher attempted to break the MS XRs (changing achievement requirements after release) and the base list become exponentially easier for a period until MS realized what had happened and required the game to revert back to the original achievement list.
  • weLtaLLcLoudweLtaLLcLoud589,021
    Posted on 07 January 24 at 09:38, Edited on 07 January 24 at 23:44 by weLtaLLcLoud
    Johnny Sinister said:
    weLtaLLcLoud said:
    Latinfla4 said:
    Johnny Sinister said:
    Latinfla4, I know I have had debated with you in the past about this, but I going to have another go. I am not trying to sound like a broken record, or be dismissive of your opinions, but I feel that some of your outlooks on the situation are missing the point (and not just you, but other gamers as well, which is why I am taking the time to write this). While I certainly respect others' opinions, cases like this are based around a structured system that has established rules, regulations, and guidelines. Sometimes opinions in regards to these systems are simply fallible and creates bad practices and misinformation. I am simply trying to discourage this type of information.

    Latinfla4 said:
    They make their money and in return actually offer games that don't have achievements locked behind online only servers, buggy platinum trophies, or unobtainables that don't make it past quality control...honestly more devs should follow suit such as ratalaika but they got scared even though they were the most common "easy game" dev for gamerscore.
    First and foremost, we need to understand the purpose of Xbox Live achievements, gamerscore, and the resultant achievement hunting hobby.

    The gamerscore system is a niche sub-hobby of video gaming and is merit based by design. This is NOT an opinion, it is and always has been the intent of the system. Every definition associated with the hobby is indicative of this.

    One major problem is that there are people (certain publishers particularly) that have seen the success of the gamerscore system and realized that they could exploit it for financial gain.

    Yes, these publishers manage to sell gamerscore (also not an opinion, as these publishers have admitted as much). As such, their main focus is a working achievement list.
    One positive thing I can say about these publishers is that they are very good about having working achievements and are quick to fix broken achievements when they do occur. Of course, when your entire business model is centered around selling achievements, it is essential that they work.
    I do like how you threw the term 'quality control' in terms of achievement coding, while referring to a system that dismisses quality control of the actual games. This is also not an opinion.
    There is a reason that most gamerscore-for-sale games are bad. It is by design. The process of scouting talented developers is a strategy used by publishers looking to sell games. Since the publishers we are discussing are in the business of selling gamerscore, the games themselves are not a priority. As such, it is quicker and more cost effective to seek out games that are lower quality, as there is no natural competition among game publishers.

    In eastasiasoft's defense, their library has much better quality control than that of other publishers (namely Ratalaika). Their games still aren't the quality that should warrant release on a premium gaming marketplace, and I have no doubt that without the sales from achievement addicts, they wouldn't be published at all. However, their Title Updates are quite scummy and a direct result of lost sales going to other gamerscore exploiters. And I think the fact that Ratalaika ultimately passed up on this strategy should be an indication of how bad it actually is.

    The big takeaway though is that this is an exploitative system that tip-toes around (and sometimes outright breaks) MS policy for achievements. That's right, for those that aren't aware, there are rules you are supposed to abide by when publishing an Xbox achievement list.
    I will let you guys read it for yourselves, but I can tell you that pretty much the entire ChiliDog Interactive library and any game that allows you to unlock achievements with mod menus or console commands is in direct violation of these policies. (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/pol...)


    Latinfla4 said:
    In theory all the title updates offer replayability because the owner plays through the game again at varying lengths to get more gamerscore and is a nice bonus to an already purchased product.
    The purpose any DLC/Title Update is to offer replayability. However, when you consider that (as previously mentioned) these games weren't sold for their playability in the first place, and the TU achievements are designed to limit gameplay as much as possible without (arguably) violating XRs, I am not sure these games are a prime example. I am sure you know this, because you strategically used the term 'varying lengths' when referring to time investment (or lack thereof). I agree that it is a 'nice bonus' to an already purchased product, but in the exploitative gamerscore-for-sale sense.

    Latinfla4 said:
    In some cases the devs even include the xbox and PC version in the same bundle for the same price such as swapshot, agriculture, and lily...name other devs who give you both stack of games for the same low price and not ask for remake/remaster money?
    Yes, when you are in the business of selling gamerscore, incentives like this help push products. Similar to that of a BOGO in a retail store. They are using throwaway shovelware titles as product and using copy and paste achievement lists for multiple version, so it isn't like this is some elaborate undertaking to manufacture.

    Latinfla4 said:
    It is akin to the old arcade style games where gamers looked for bragging rights playing the same game levels repeatedly to place their initials on the games leaderboard.
    I am not really sure how this has anything to do with this publisher, practice, or conversation. However, I would be more than happy to revisit if you could elaborate.

    Latinfla4 said:
    Yes I do it for the gamerscore as well and love it...I mean we are on an achievement hunting website comment forum...happy gaming everyone
    Here is the main issue. You use the term achievement hunting. As I mentioned in the opening, achievement hunting is a niche-hobby with an established structure and intent. When this intent is disregarded, I would argue that what we are doing in regards to these exploits does not fall under the umbrella of 'achievement hunting'.

    I know people don't like to hear this, and I assure you that this is not gatekeeping, but amassing gamerscore and achievement hunting are not the same thing. It is entirely possible to utilize the hobby incorrectly. And I fear that is what has been happening.
    The arcade leaderboard example is to show gamers would play the same levels over and over of a game they "beat" for nothing other than a bragging rights leaderboard score which is what current title updates do just that you are collecting gamerscore for doing various tasks or completing new levels...I agree the ones that are jump 50 times or whatever are the worst of the title updates
    That's one thing I don't get I think these achievement from a game that I am currently playing...It's suppose to be a 200 hour game...grindy repetition ass game(like the jump x number of times, die x number of times)...

    Disney Dreamlight ValleyAnglerThe Angler achievement in Disney Dreamlight Valley worth 267 pointsCatch 1,800 fish


    Disney Dreamlight ValleyMinerThe Miner achievement in Disney Dreamlight Valley worth 228 pointsMine 1,800 times


    ^ Are much easier to get then

    these achievements where I have to put in work to get....
    ^

    Cake InvadersExterminator Bonus XThe Exterminator Bonus X achievement in Cake Invaders worth 305 pointsReach the 21th wave.


    Castle of no EscapeFriendship winsThe Friendship wins achievement in Castle of no Escape worth 123 pointsDon't kill any monsters (except the boss)


    It just kinda shows you that easy game's aren't that easy after all...
    I am not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

    There is a distinct difference between easy games, and easy achievement lists. Also, the TA metrics are based on rarity, not necessarily difficulty, so comparing long grinds to skill based tasks is apples and oranges.

    The goal of the gamerscore-for-sale publishers is to make a list that is relatively easy (to unlock), to ensure the players can complete it. It is what you are paying for, after all. The actual difficutly of the games is not always a factor. For instance, you can take a game like 'Crypt of the Necrodancer', which is arguably the most difficult game on the site to complete, yet a publisher like Ratalaika could port it as is and yet create a customized achievement list that could be completed by virtually anyone in 30 minutes or less. So again, easy games =/= easy gamerscore.

    As far as your examples go, I am not sure they are great examples. For one, the examples you used as being 'easier' have a much lower unlock rate, meaning that they are rarer. Sure, it requires no effort to perform unskilled menial tasks over and over again, but the achievement unlock data would also suggest that given the same amount of time, players could gain the skills and muscle memory to complete the 'challenging' achievement at a rate higher than the one require grinding. Thus, still making the game (in this case, Cake Invaders) a statistically easier completion.

    Also, the 'Castle of No Escape' achievement is a bad example, as the game released before the publisher (Xitilon) was in the gamerscore-for-sale market. The scores for that game are not reliable due to the fact that the publisher attempted to break the MS XRs (changing achievement requirements after release) and the base list become exponentially easier for a period until MS realized what had happened and required the game to revert back to the original achievement list.
    All I am trying to say is that yes both cake invaders and disney dreamlike valley both require muscle memory and repetitive actions...
    But in cake invaders you can die, the enemy's come at you randomly, and they come at you faster each wave you clear...and if you die you go back to the first wave...and the two achievement's I named was lucked based not skill based...
    In disney dreamlike valley, you can't die, you do the same repetitive actions over and over again, even tho it maybe a grind...thus it's easier to get the achievement in that game...I may have went overboard with the mining achievement because you have to move and find minerals in the mine for it to count...but still...plus I get like 3 mining jobs to do every day and 3 fishing jobs to do every day...it's called duties but I call it daily's tasks to do...that's also for a achievement...and you can go fishing or mining whenever you want to...so that's a bonus I guess..
    I am not talking about completions or how long they are, I am talking about which one is easier getting achievements with.
    Pressing A (a bunch of times) is way easier(repetition) than a game like #SinucaAttack where you have to actually do a task...
    Disney Dreamlight Valley completion is so difficult and over 200 hours...is because you got to find night thorns and they are not always in the same spot in the map...They appear randomly (I have about 900 out of 3,000) right now...and you got to find them in the biomes and thorns will respawn 8 per 24 hours. that's another lucked based achievement...tho...
    Go figure... roll

    You said this, "Sure, it requires no effort to perform unskilled menial tasks over and over again, but the achievement unlock data would also suggest that given the same amount of time, players could gain the skills and muscle memory to complete the 'challenging' achievement at a rate higher than the one require grinding. Thus, still making the game (in this case, Cake Invaders) a statistically easier completion."
    ^ That may not be entirely true... So your saying that a game like Crushborgs, a game you can get through without dieing...let's say a somebody who never played videogames before went through the game without dieing once if Xitilon decided to put a death counter and damage on it let's say 3 deaths and if you go over the 3 deaths you go back to the start of the game...do u think the new player gained skills and muscle memory...could get him/her to complete the 'challenging' achievement ...again...let's say Eastasiasoft decided to update cake invaders increasing the enemies count...while making the enemies harder and faster...and they still come out randomly...then your skills and muscle memory will have to change to adapt...All I am saying is that you can die in cake invaders and go back to wave 1 plus the 2 achievement's I named was luck based...not skilled based...you can't die in disney dreamlike valley...thus making the disney dreamlike valley achievement kinda technically easier...to obtain (through doing daily tasks, repetition and I guess grinding and a plus you don't have to worry about dieing and starting over) unless your really lucky and be able to get the achievement I named in cake invaders or really skilled at videogames...
    ^
    I will give you the castle of no escape...tho...you're right about that...even through the two achievement's I named was lucked based achievements...it's still harder to obtain...containing rng elements...tho...
    weLtaLLcLoud
  • XvalgurXXvalgurX481,294
    Posted on 07 January 24 at 14:16
    Eastasiasoft should totally make their own subscription service with all that library
  • Posted on 07 January 24 at 18:39
    XvalgurX said:
    Eastasiasoft should totally make their own subscription service with all that library
    Id sub for a month, finish everything and then come back when they have more.
  • RibbitSneedRibbitSneed411,844
    Posted on 08 January 24 at 12:27
    I actually like this, makes me come back to older games and these ones from eastasia soft aren't too bad
  • BogrolluserBogrolluser331,295
    Posted on 08 January 24 at 15:30
    The only two reasons I hate these types of games are :

    1. Makes the gamerscore leaderboard basically a battle of 'who can buy the most of these titles and play them in the month' sure the telltale games were like this but manageable 1000g rather than 2000 or 3000 for a few hours gameplay.

    2. These games are one of the soul contributers as 2 why 1 million gamerscore isn't as impressive as it use to be. Sure Stallion83 was the first person to break 1 million gamerscore and played 'easy' games to help build up the score but nothing as easy as these games.


    These games are mediocre 2 bad at most also. Games like butterfly and synchro hedgehogs and smart moves would never of been known if they didn't release and update with easy and big gamerscore. The whole practice is just off-putting. Oh well, maybe it's a skill issue or money issue that makes me feel that way. Enjoy the artificial and easy gamerscore hunters!
    Bogrolluser
  • TigerfangTigerfang633,580
    Posted on 10 January 24 at 06:19
    Guys if you haven’t yet, check out a game called Cruz Brothers that has 6,000gs . Not very difficult to get most of the points in a quick play through too.
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