Johnny Sinister said:Latinfla4, I know I have had debated with you in the past about this, but I going to have another go. I am not trying to sound like a broken record, or be dismissive of your opinions, but I feel that some of your outlooks on the situation are missing the point (and not just you, but other gamers as well, which is why I am taking the time to write this). While I certainly respect others' opinions, cases like this are based around a structured system that has established rules, regulations, and guidelines. Sometimes opinions in regards to these systems are simply fallible and creates bad practices and misinformation. I am simply trying to discourage this type of information.
Latinfla4 said:They make their money and in return actually offer games that don't have achievements locked behind online only servers, buggy platinum trophies, or unobtainables that don't make it past quality control...honestly more devs should follow suit such as ratalaika but they got scared even though they were the most common "easy game" dev for gamerscore.
First and foremost, we need to understand the purpose of Xbox Live achievements, gamerscore, and the resultant achievement hunting hobby.
The gamerscore system is a niche sub-hobby of video gaming and is merit based by design. This is NOT an opinion, it is and always has been the intent of the system. Every definition associated with the hobby is indicative of this.
One major problem is that there are people (certain publishers particularly) that have seen the success of the gamerscore system and realized that they could exploit it for financial gain.
Yes, these publishers manage to sell gamerscore (also not an opinion, as these publishers have admitted as much). As such, their main focus is a working achievement list.
One positive thing I can say about these publishers is that they are very good about having working achievements and are quick to fix broken achievements when they do occur. Of course, when your entire business model is centered around selling achievements, it is essential that they work.
I do like how you threw the term 'quality control' in terms of achievement coding, while referring to a system that dismisses quality control of the actual games. This is also not an opinion.
There is a reason that most gamerscore-for-sale games are bad. It is by design. The process of scouting talented developers is a strategy used by publishers looking to sell games. Since the publishers we are discussing are in the business of selling gamerscore, the games themselves are not a priority. As such, it is quicker and more cost effective to seek out games that are lower quality, as there is no natural competition among game publishers.
In eastasiasoft's defense, their library has much better quality control than that of other publishers (namely Ratalaika). Their games still aren't the quality that should warrant release on a premium gaming marketplace, and I have no doubt that without the sales from achievement addicts, they wouldn't be published at all. However, their Title Updates are quite scummy and a direct result of lost sales going to other gamerscore exploiters. And I think the fact that Ratalaika ultimately passed up on this strategy should be an indication of how bad it actually is.
The big takeaway though is that this is an exploitative system that tip-toes around (and sometimes outright breaks) MS policy for achievements. That's right, for those that aren't aware, there are rules you are supposed to abide by when publishing an Xbox achievement list.
I will let you guys read it for yourselves, but I can tell you that pretty much the entire ChiliDog Interactive library and any game that allows you to unlock achievements with mod menus or console commands is in direct violation of these policies. (
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/pol...)
Latinfla4 said:In theory all the title updates offer replayability because the owner plays through the game again at varying lengths to get more gamerscore and is a nice bonus to an already purchased product.
The purpose any DLC/Title Update is to offer replayability. However, when you consider that (as previously mentioned) these games weren't sold for their playability in the first place, and the TU achievements are designed to limit gameplay as much as possible without (arguably) violating XRs, I am not sure these games are a prime example. I am sure you know this, because you strategically used the term 'varying lengths' when referring to time investment (or lack thereof). I agree that it is a 'nice bonus' to an already purchased product, but in the exploitative gamerscore-for-sale sense.
Latinfla4 said:In some cases the devs even include the xbox and PC version in the same bundle for the same price such as swapshot, agriculture, and lily...name other devs who give you both stack of games for the same low price and not ask for remake/remaster money?
Yes, when you are in the business of selling gamerscore, incentives like this help push products. Similar to that of a BOGO in a retail store. They are using throwaway shovelware titles as product and using copy and paste achievement lists for multiple version, so it isn't like this is some elaborate undertaking to manufacture.
Latinfla4 said:It is akin to the old arcade style games where gamers looked for bragging rights playing the same game levels repeatedly to place their initials on the games leaderboard.
I am not really sure how this has anything to do with this publisher, practice, or conversation. However, I would be more than happy to revisit if you could elaborate.
Latinfla4 said:Yes I do it for the gamerscore as well and love it...I mean we are on an achievement hunting website comment forum...happy gaming everyone
Here is the main issue. You use the term achievement hunting. As I mentioned in the opening, achievement hunting is a niche-hobby with an established structure and intent. When this intent is disregarded, I would argue that what we are doing in regards to these exploits does not fall under the umbrella of 'achievement hunting'.
I know people don't like to hear this, and I assure you that this is not gatekeeping, but amassing gamerscore and achievement hunting are not the same thing. It is entirely possible to utilize the hobby incorrectly. And I fear that is what has been happening.
First of all thanks for the well thought out discussion you have posted and value your opinion on this debate as it is interesting.I will try to post in order of my counterpoints.
Yes the quality control is outstanding and makes me sad that smaller devs do a better job with cheevo unlocks and customer service than bigger aaa companies which can learn from them...notice how many of them refuse to put patches out to fix the problems unless sales are hurting?
No online only cheevos or platinum cheevos are also great for the consumer as well as the starting price usually 3.99 on preorder or closer to 5 dollars afterwards and usually a solid entertainment factor if the gamer continues to play for the genuine challenge after the achievement pops(currently I am doing 100 percent completion on daggerfall League of evil and zombies with its souls like gameplay well past the 1000 gamerscore)
If others don't take full advantage of the game they bought after the gs that is on them and not on the devs.
Ratalaika/xitilon/others prefer to sell you the sequel (reskined) sequel as a separate transaction which is why I like the bogo deal Eastasiasoft is doing with giving you both the xbox and PC stack for the same price...you can't argue that is a good deal regardless of how easy or hard a game is...it's smart retail so more people buy their games like any good business
The arcade leaderboard example is to show gamers would play the same levels over and over of a game they "beat" for nothing other than a bragging rights leaderboard score which is what current title updates do just that you are collecting gamerscore for doing various tasks or completing new levels...I agree the ones that are jump 50 times or whatever are the worst of the title updates.
Mod menus and console commands are a different discussion but those don't fall on just these games as others like subnautica surviving mars etc. were approved and promoted on game pass.
The last point is achievement hunting and gaining gamerscore/ratio are the same thing as you need to hunt/gain achievements to improve your gamerscore or ratio with rare unlocks...I was not saying achievements are either easy or hard to get. A more valid argument would be that achievement hunting and completion rate are different since you can get various achievements but not complete the game depending on the achievement list.
I dont think the hobby is being misused as Gamepass is just another marketing tool for smaller devs to sell their games on a bigger platform... what i find interesting is that people don't get angry about the easy completions there? I assure you I know people who sub gamepass for months here and there and knock out the easy game completions as well as others who get it for the day one drops and harder games.
People game depending on their interests in this hobby and find joy in different things...just thankful this hobby is still alive and I can use easy games as an entry point and to build memories for my younger family members (honestly I prefer an easier Eastasiasoft game to play with them than going through another reskin of paw patrol or peppa pig on gamepass that is misusing this hobby not giving more gamerscore for a previous purchase)
Think that is all happy gaming everyone 😃
if u have ez games on your gamercard dont b a hypocrite and stop others from enjoying the same games and try not 2 spend more than 4 dollars for them