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Lies of P Discussion - Spoilers

  • TymanTheLongTymanTheLong556,132
    Posted on 30 August 24 at 18:28
    bdp123 said:
    How long is the story for lies of P
    Supposing you don’t want to do two playthroughs to unlock every achievement and all versions of every subplot howlongtobeat has it down as just under 30 hours for once through the story: https://howlongtobeat.com/game/92418

    You can kind of go about it two ways: spend time learning each boss to master them and beat them or spend much less time just partially mastering bosses and make up the difference with throwables, which also means you have to spend whatever time you saved farming ergo to pay for new throwables. I will say I do the latter strategy and there are a few bosses, especially minor bosses, where this doesn’t work as well due to a particular boss’ mechanics and a small area in which to fight them (I’m looking at you Walker of Illusions!).

    Anyway, Lies of P really sucked me in and I’m fascinated by it.
  • ROBBERT DHTROBBERT DHT1,794,869
    Posted on 31 August 24 at 19:14
    The game might be rated great, the videos I've seen didn't intrigue me enough to start it. I might love it if I do start it but I'm working on other games now (along with the TA targets and other events)
  • TymanTheLongTymanTheLong556,132
    Posted on 31 August 24 at 20:05, Edited on 01 September 24 at 23:36 by TymanTheLong
    Lore question: so we know ergo is made of souls, did the game ever elucidate where exactly the souls come from? Do they come from the living or the dead? How is it obtained? I can only assume it’s unethical, Full Metal Alchemist philosopher stone style if the Alchemists are providing it.

    Found the answer late game from Sophia: The petrification disease freezes people and apparently their souls, which are then extracted by alchemists. That’s one half of the reason Simon has been intentionally spreading the disease.
  • TymanTheLongTymanTheLong556,132
    Posted on 01 September 24 at 23:42, Edited on 01 September 24 at 23:52 by TymanTheLong
    JohnnyInterfnk said:
    11.) Door Guardian -- A bit of a gimmick fight where you have to target the small leg. Died 4-5 times before I got frustrated by the lack of damage I was doing and looked it up online to see what I was doing wrong (and then felt dumb for having to look it up). Once you know you have to stagger/fatal attack by targeting the small leg, I just used the Devastation Grinder and the fight was much, much easier. I did learn from this fight that Shock is the most annoying status effect of the game, bar none.
    Just to add to anyone struggling with this guy, the Aegis level two allows attacking while blocking, he rests so long between attack you can just stay on his weak leg and put the Aegis up before the next one. Just keep your stamina half full so you can absorb them. Also when you’re on his weak leg in front he actually will miss with several of his attacks.

    You only need two staggers plus fatal blows to kill him in NG, I assume Motivity characters can exploit shot puts to get the staggers but once I realized how good Aegis is on him it’s honestly no big deal.

    JohnnyInterfnk said:


    10.) Black Rabbit Brotherhood -- Confession time. Here is where I starting using a specter, mostly because I didn't feel like dealing with multiple attackers at one time. As such, this only took me two attempts (my first failed one solo, then the successful one with a specter). I think the gimmick here is you have to kill the last two brothers close together or the Eldest comes back and double-teams you to death, but with a specter in tow this was a non-issue, and in my second playthrough (where I completed this solo) I was so over-leveled that the Brotherhood double-team was a non-issue (they don't attack together, so it's easy to handle them one-on-one). I felt bad about using a specter in this fight, and then I met Laxasia later. Didn't feel so bad after that.
    I was so scared of this fight I farmed a crazy amount of throwables and 10 levels… and killed them second try (threw the first try because I forgot to equip my Wishstone and lost my specter too early). I killed the sister first, chasing around is slow though, might have been a bad choice, then the brothers, fable arted the final one for like 40% of his life. The eldest was alone, so I exhausted my Aegis, then just used the low stack of sandbags or whatever they were to stay opposite him and throw a few acid throwables at him. All in all I’m glad they weren’t the nightmare I was expecting…
  • MarekVitMarekVit582,307
    Posted on 02 September 24 at 19:06
    Phew, finally beat the game today on NG+. Some of the bosses were tough, but with my playstyle I didn't have much of a trouble. You see, I suck at parrying... which I compensate for by overpowering my character. I farmed so much that I ended up with my Aegis enduring entire boss fights. I'm not too proud of what I do and how I play these games, but they are just too good to NOT finish.

    FYI, my level when I beat the Nameless Puppet was a little short of 300.

    And my fav weapon - the umbrella, maxed out, technique S. Doesn't have the highest stats, but it's super fast!!!! Sometimes even stronger enemies go down without dealing you any damage, just spam RB and they're dead.
  • TymanTheLongTymanTheLong556,132
    Posted on 03 September 24 at 09:23
    MarekVit said:
    Phew, finally beat the game today on NG+. Some of the bosses were tough, but with my playstyle I didn't have much of a trouble. You see, I suck at parrying... which I compensate for by overpowering my character. I farmed so much that I ended up with my Aegis enduring entire boss fights. I'm not too proud of what I do and how I play these games, but they are just too good to NOT finish.

    FYI, my level when I beat the Nameless Puppet was a little short of 300.

    And my fav weapon - the umbrella, maxed out, technique S. Doesn't have the highest stats, but it's super fast!!!! Sometimes even stronger enemies go down without dealing you any damage, just spam RB and they're dead.
    That is all an entirely valid way to play. Grats on you completion! I just started NG+ so it’ll be a few days for me I think.
  • JohnnyInterfnkJohnnyInterfnk1,406,606
    Posted on 06 September 24 at 16:52
    TymanTheLong said:
    Question for everyone: what weapons did you end up feeling like were your workhorses?

    For me I’m getting bored of it, but I’m an Advance build and Electric Coil Stick is so good against puppets I use it a ton, but my absolute favorite is Salamander Dagger blade on the Acidic Spear handle. This gives you nice reach, S Advance scaling from spending two cranks, an obscene Y Fable Art that boosts Fire damage for what seems like an excessively long time, and a Piercing only moveset on a one handed weapon that feels like it has almost the reach of a two handed weapon. It attacks fast as heck, and Charged Heavy charges quickly and does a double stab that moves forward quite a ways. Not to mention Overheat adds an extra 40% Fire damage when you inflict it on the enemy.

    So yeah, Salamander Blade + Acidic Spear handle is probably my favorite weapon. Took down the swamp boss on my second try last night with it.

    None of the boss ergo weapons from Alidoro scale with Advance so I haven’t tried any of them out yet. I hear the Romeo ergo weapon and the swamp boss ergo weapon (sabre) are amazing though.
    I started as Motivity, but switched to Technique mid-game (which I really liked about Lies of P, the ability to respec without heavy punishment).

    For the second half of the game, I wound up switching back and forth between the Puppet Ripper for level clearing (it has a lot of both stagger and reach, which is good for wombo-comboing down packs of enemies) and the Two Dragon sword for bosses and enemies that needed fast striking and heavy blows for stagger.

    In my second playthrough, I think I soft-capped Technique, so started boosting Motivity, and wound up using the Golden Lie a lot toward the end of the game for its balance between Puppet Ripper and Two Dragon. Wound up using the Golden Lie on the Nameless Puppet both times as well if I remember correctly.

    Prior to the Pupper Ripper and Two Dragons, I was playing around a lot with weapon combos. I think I was using a saw blade on a pole a lot early. I also had a circular saw on a stick at one point I was using as it did electric damage -- I used that pretty heavily in the Exhibition level if I remember correctly again.

    Mostly though -- Two Dragons for speed, Puppet Ripper for stagger, reach, and sweep.
  • JohnnyInterfnkJohnnyInterfnk1,406,606
    Posted on 06 September 24 at 16:55
    Cylon 118 said:
    I mainly used the electric arm its capable of one hit killing alot of enemies at full power and knocking over big guys as long as u time it right as its range is well low but it is pretty useless in boss fights. I just never really relied on the arms too much and didnt experiment with them nearly enough i think.
    I wound up using the Falcon Sight (Falcon Eyes?) almost exclusively. The ability to pull enemies to you with a ranged attack is always welcome in a souls game, and on bosses you can get chip damage in from a distance (or a bunch of damage at the beginning of a fight).

    Somehow I never used the Aegis. Weird what you miss in these things when playing partially-blind...
  • JohnnyInterfnkJohnnyInterfnk1,406,606
    Posted on 06 September 24 at 16:58
    MarekVit said:
    Phew, finally beat the game today on NG+. Some of the bosses were tough, but with my playstyle I didn't have much of a trouble. You see, I suck at parrying... which I compensate for by overpowering my character. I farmed so much that I ended up with my Aegis enduring entire boss fights. I'm not too proud of what I do and how I play these games, but they are just too good to NOT finish.

    FYI, my level when I beat the Nameless Puppet was a little short of 300.

    And my fav weapon - the umbrella, maxed out, technique S. Doesn't have the highest stats, but it's super fast!!!! Sometimes even stronger enemies go down without dealing you any damage, just spam RB and they're dead.
    300? I thought I was high up at 200! Nice work.

    I believe the community calls this the "Elden Ring" strategy :)
  • MarekVitMarekVit582,307
    Posted on 06 September 24 at 18:13
    JohnnyInterfnk said:
    MarekVit said:
    Phew, finally beat the game today on NG+. Some of the bosses were tough, but with my playstyle I didn't have much of a trouble. You see, I suck at parrying... which I compensate for by overpowering my character. I farmed so much that I ended up with my Aegis enduring entire boss fights. I'm not too proud of what I do and how I play these games, but they are just too good to NOT finish.

    FYI, my level when I beat the Nameless Puppet was a little short of 300.

    And my fav weapon - the umbrella, maxed out, technique S. Doesn't have the highest stats, but it's super fast!!!! Sometimes even stronger enemies go down without dealing you any damage, just spam RB and they're dead.
    300? I thought I was high up at 200! Nice work.

    I believe the community calls this the "Elden Ring" strategy :)
    Really? I should try that in Elden Ring.... still a few bosses to beat there. :-)
  • TymanTheLongTymanTheLong556,132
    Posted on 06 September 24 at 20:16
    MarekVit said:
    JohnnyInterfnk said:
    MarekVit said:
    Phew, finally beat the game today on NG+. Some of the bosses were tough, but with my playstyle I didn't have much of a trouble. You see, I suck at parrying... which I compensate for by overpowering my character. I farmed so much that I ended up with my Aegis enduring entire boss fights. I'm not too proud of what I do and how I play these games, but they are just too good to NOT finish.

    FYI, my level when I beat the Nameless Puppet was a little short of 300.

    And my fav weapon - the umbrella, maxed out, technique S. Doesn't have the highest stats, but it's super fast!!!! Sometimes even stronger enemies go down without dealing you any damage, just spam RB and they're dead.
    300? I thought I was high up at 200! Nice work.

    I believe the community calls this the "Elden Ring" strategy :)
    Really? I should try that in Elden Ring.... still a few bosses to beat there. :-)
    I’ve definitely done that in Elden Ring and you can overpower literally everything. I did have to respec to beat Promised Consort Radahn since he was putting more pressure on me as a caster than any other bosses ever had, by a wide margin but even then it was only because I was bringing along two quest NPCs which jacks up his HP like crazy. Respeccing to a build he was weak to made him easy.

    Others have mentioned a seeming soft cap for damage stats and I’ve seen this myself, after about 40 fast weapons only get maybe 1 actual extra damage per point, by 50 it’s one damage per 2 points. Slow weapons obviously scale a tad better. Some stats still merit a few more points because they also bump up your Legion and Capacity needs low 40s to stat under 60% weight threshold while wearing the NG+ +1 armor pieces (I cannot even fathom how much the NG++ +2 armor pieces may weigh!). But really 40,40,40 in Motivity, Technique, and Advance is easily doable by end of NG+ and opens up the game’s full suite of weapons and throwables
    to you.

    I’m convinced the real secret stat is your Stagger damage. Sometimes I just use the perfection grindstone to get easy perfect blocks and cause easy staggers.

    I am facing NG+ Nameless Puppet today and I’m a bit nervous, he was such a problem for me in NG.
  • JohnnyInterfnkJohnnyInterfnk1,406,606
    Posted on 06 September 24 at 21:35
    TymanTheLong said:
    I am facing NG+ Nameless Puppet today and I’m a bit nervous, he was such a problem for me in NG.
    Good luck! Muscle memory helps.
  • TymanTheLongTymanTheLong556,132
    Posted on 07 September 24 at 00:28, Edited on 07 September 24 at 00:30 by TymanTheLong
    JohnnyInterfnk said:
    TymanTheLong said:
    I am facing NG+ Nameless Puppet today and I’m a bit nervous, he was such a problem for me in NG.
    Good luck! Muscle memory helps.
    Thanks! Got him on the third try without using any throwables! Aegis + the Trident of the Covenant is just sick! I tell you what there were several sub 10% of his life stressful moments though!

    I read NG++ enemies don’t gain damage but do get a larger HP pool so a more flexible approach is probably good.

    I tried with Noblesse Obligee and probably could have swung it with that but the Trident has a 30% crit chance and a faster charged heavy and those both seemed more useful in the end.

    Man I cannot express enough how impressed I am with Lies of P. I’ll have a long ass post later about the characters vs their storybook counterparts along with the other cultural influences that I expect apply. Suffice it to say the praise doesn’t do it justice.

    And for the recored I spent about 2 hours listening to podcasts and overleveling, I’m level 241 which is pretty close to the useful caps for most stats (Vitality and Vigor are 40 and could probably go up to 50 usefully, after that I think Capacity is the only useful increase).

    If your stats are spread out in NG+ the game really does give you a lot of flexibility, for example using Falcon Eyes to shoot the Door Guardian’s weak leg for a much easier Stagger. Small things like that really up the replayability for me and I feel like I missed out on less compared to a focused (out of necessity) NG build. I think I could have used a few more Full Moons of the Covenant for more +5 boss weapon options though.
  • TymanTheLongTymanTheLong556,132
    Posted on 10 September 24 at 07:25
    So here’s my mega post on Lies of P vs The Adventures of Pinocchio…


    … also some random musings about the game itself.

    As a note, I read the 1892 Murray translation of The Adventures of Pinocchio so many of the word and phrase choices would be dated by today’s standards (for example the Land of Boobies, a booby in this case refers to a fool, layabout, or jackass, not breasts).

    NOTE: I found it interesting that Adventures of Pinocchio was published in a serialized format in a newspaper like The Three Musketeers, later it was republished as a book. It is the third most translated book of all time behind only The Bible and The Little Prince (Le Petit Prince) by Antoine de St. Exupéry.

    Note about the author Collodi - Collodi was very politically active in trying to separate Italy from the Austrian Empire in order for it to form its own state. He started writing after seeing his political dreams actually become a reality a few years earlier. Collodi would have had a wildly different world view from us. One notable detail is his descriptions of male friendship. At the time male friendships were very affectionate, including physical affection and were valued by men as a higher form of intimacy than even between husbands and wives. Surely a minority of these friendships were actually homo-romantic in nature but this view of male intimate friendships was universal in western culture. This is why the interactions between Antonio and Gepetto in the first chapter seem so odd to us.

    Lies of P definitely tries to incorporate as many proper nouns as possible from the book though often these appropriations bear little resemblance to their literary counterparts. In some cases though, there’s some interesting comparisons to be made. Here’s a side by side.

    Carlos aka P / Carlo Collodi (the author) - this is obviously a tribute to the actual author of the Adventures of Pinocchio. P only has Carlos’ spirit (aka his ergo). Carlos is Giuseppe Geppeto’s dead son in the video game, that he is dead set on committing world altering crimes to resurrect in some way despite being what amounts to an absentee father. It is unclear how Carlos died from though it’s possible it was during an early career as a stalker (guard, and mercenary that hunts renegade puppets) as he is seen begging an unnamed female stalker for training and later is found dead by the same female stalker. It’s worth noting that in the book Pinocchio dies multiple times and is saved by providence and by dint of being a wooden puppet rather than a human boy. Death being impermanent for Pinocchio is a running theme. It’s worth noting that Pinocchio is especially devoid of common sense and being able to “see the writing on the wall” as well as being stubborn. We see this with P as well, Romeo tries to warn him what Gepetto is up to and P simply kills him.

    The Nameless Puppet / no literary equivalent - mentioned her as tgis seems to be Gepetto’s early effort at resurrection of of Carlos, using a puppet and part of Carlos’ original body (thus we see The Nameless Puppet has both human and puppet weaknesses). In a way P and the Nameless Puppet are brothers, but the latter seems to have multiple ergos animating him, some of which may we awoken, making him volatile and either hateful or resentful of P. P having severed some of the controlling puppet strings during the fight then faces a more unchained and uncontrolled enemy that eventually defies Gepetto by trying to simply destroy P, killing Gepetto instead when he tries to stop him.

    Sophia / The Blue Haired Fairy - this is one that has some pretty big notes that are parallel but has been also changed a lot to drive the Lies of P plot. The Blue Haired Fairy is at one point Pinocchio’s adoptive sister, but seeming to age more like humans is later encountered at a matronly age and becomes his mother (later she transforms herself into a blue goat for unexplained reasons). She has mystical powers but is not omnipotent, she fails to rescue Pinocchio from the “Dog Fish” (aka shark) and she’s able to become ill. However she seems to be able to uniquely, aside from Pinocchio, transcend death. She dies at least twice which is part of the inspiration for Pinocchio to finally not be a “lazy and worthless boy” (a running theme of the story). The Blue Fairy resurrects at the end of the story paralleling the Rise of P ending of Lies of P, where she gets immortality by having her ergo, previously granted to P, put inside a Sophia puppet. Interestingly Lies of P provides an explanation for P’s ability to resurrect after dying, much like Elden Ring does for The Tarnished: Sophia’s power allows her to rewind time, basically rewinding time to his last Stargazer visit (though since collected items remain the story mechanic has some plot holes). Simon Manus even complains about this specific power of Sophia’s saying that Sophia’s power was so great she had effectively selected the victor with it.

    Gepetto / Giuseppe Gepetto - Gepetto in the book is a poor and penniless old man in ill health. He’d not be considered a model of good parenting today but seems to have been written as a long suffering parent that usually doesn’t deserve the ill fortune Pinocchio tends to bring upon him. In Lies of P, Gepetto is quite obviously the bad guy. If you listen to his dialogue he has a creepy habit switching to talking in the third person when speaking to P, saying stuff like “my son is very important to me”, it’s pretty clear he doesn’t mean P in this case but Carlos. He also complains about Donkey (the stalker) accusing him of being behind the Puppet Frenzy, bitterly saying “and it’s all based on lies”, however it’s true, and Gepetto is a liar throughout the story while spouting about how awful lies are, which is interesting as the lies are a principle way P becomes more human than puppet. In the book The Blue Fairy claims there are two kinds of lies, ones that make your nose grow and ones that make your legs short, though we never find out what makes which one which, we can only surmise that Pinocchio only tells nose related lies.

    Polendina / Polendina - Poledina in Lies of P is a butler puppet for Lady Antonia in Hotel Krat. He has an awoken ego (all the puppets in Hotel Krat do, though it’s unclear how many of the humans realize that) and is in love with Lady Antonia. He mourns her eventual death by claiming he’ll erase his memories and become “just a puppet” again. This ability isn’t really explained (but may or may not be similar to what Gemmini experienced when losing his memories), but could very well be argued to be a form of puppet suicide. In the book Polendina isn’t actually a separate character, it’s a derogatory nickname for Gepetto due to his yellow wig, the neighborhood kids mock him and call him Polendina, which is apparently a sort of corn meal pudding. This name sends Gepetto into a fighting rage when he hears it.

    Lady Antonia / Antonia - this is a gender swap for Lies of P but both character’s function as a close friend of Gepetto and help to kick off the plot of the story. In the case of Lady Antonia she has the same habit as Gepetto of weirdly talking about Carlos when she switches to speaking to P in the third person. It’s unclear what she knows of Gepetto’s plans but it seems like she knows more than she lets on and while she seemingly comes to like P and maybe doesn’t agree with Gepetto she seems to go along. Master Antonio is also called Master Cherry in the book and it is noted in Lies of P that Lady Antonia’s final letter to you “smells of cherries”. Antonio gives a piece of speaking wood to Gepetto who then carves Pinocchio from it. Antonio and Gepetto seem to be close friends though they get angry and fight a lot before quickly making up and resolving to remain friends.

    Gemini / The Talking Cricket - Collodi never gives the Cricket a name but he’s how we initially learn about Piccochio’s initial lack fo character, the Cricket tries to give him some advice and Pinocchio immediately kills him by throwing a hammer (or hammer handle) at him, thereafter he appears as the Ghost of the Talking Cricket, until late in the story when we find him owning a cottage where he lets Pinocchio and an ill Gepetto stay. It’s not clear if he’s living or a ghost at this point. In Lies or P Gemini is actually a mechanical puppet who doesn’t remember a lot of things that he should. Pinocchio finds him broken but he gradually repairs himself but not to the point he remembers everything. For example he doesn’t remember that Carlos was the one that loved the “story of the wooden puppet” and doesn’t recall he once served the mysterious female stalker who found Carlos’ body. Interestingly he’s the only character in both stories to be able to access a sort of resurrection of his own accord. I’m not sure why he’s in a lamp called Monad’s Lamp.

    Pulcinella / Pulcinella - in Lies of P Pulcinella is to Venigni what Alfred is to Bruce Wayne, he’s both a butler and a surrogate father, though in Pulcinella’s case he’s also a puppet with an awakened ergo. He dearly loves Venigni and Venigni seems to love him in return, and surely recognizes that he has an awakened ergo. This makes Venigni’s willingness to make and sell puppets driven by human souls all the weirder. Pulcinella is, like Arlecchino, a popular theater character of the era. In the book Pulcinella is a minor puppet character from the same troupe as Arlecchino/Harlequin, he helps Harlequin almost use Pinocchio as firewood at their master, Fire Eater’s, demand.

    Fuoco (boss) / Fire Eater - I think this is simply a clever reuse of names, but it’s interesting thematically as Fire Eater tries to use Pinocchio as firewood. In the end Fire Eater shows great kindness to Pinocchio and even gives him 5 gold coins. Fuoco wasn’t really a bad guy, he was helping Romeo to fight the monsters the Alchemists had made and to thwart Gepetto. Again, I think P is a moron and wasn’t really the good guy, much like Pinocchio.

    Medoro / Medoro - in Lies of P we only meet Medoro as an intrepid reporter trying to unearth the mystery of what is really going on in Krat. We learn he’s later died fighting a losing resistance against the extant calamity. In the book he is a servant of the Blue Haired Fairy, a poodle that can walk upright like a man and speak. (As with all dogs in the story it’s important to note that Collodi would have been familiar with dogs as working animals, not pets).

    Arlecchino / Harlequin (possibly) - Arlecchino is a mass murdering puppet whose ergo has awakened (freeing him from The Grand Covenant). He’s previously murdered Venigni’s parents right in front of him in a 100% Bruce Wayne story. Arlecchino actually seems to be a mash up of The Joker, Harley Quinn, and The Riddler villains from Batman, his name literally translates to “The Fool” (Joker) or Harlequin (Harley Quinn). It’s worth noting that this is a popular stage character of the era as well and in the book Harlequin is a minor character from one chapter, also a puppet, from a troupe of performing puppets that all celebrate meeting Pinocchio.

    Venigni / no book equivalent with one possible exception - Venigni is an insert for the Lies of P story that functions as literally Bruce Wayne. His parents are killed in front of him by a villain (Arlecchino) after they see his favorite movie, he raised by his butler puppet/father figure, Pulcinella, and he grows into a genius inventor that owns most of the industry in Krat, basically Venigni Works is Wayne Enterprises. As far as we know Venigni doesn’t have a Batman-esque alter ego and at least acts physically incompetent, but that’s a common story trope with Bruce Wayne as well. In a Krat full of Stalkers that literally wear animal masks I wouldn’t be surprised if we see Venigni show up wearing a bat mask in the DLC. Venigni is one of the few people in Krat that understands that puppets can have their egos “awoken” and regain their memories and humanity from their previous lives. This actually makes him somewhat parallel to the coachman from the book, who lures boys to The Land of Boobies and waits for them to turn into donkeys, once they are no longer recognizable as human the coachman sells them as donkeys. It’s difficult to think, having written this in the 1880s, that Collodi wasn’t making some sort of commentary on slavery and in Lies of P Venigni, even knowing that puppets contain human souls, still sells them to a public that does not. This doesn’t really speak well of Venigni’s character. In Batman stories usually the criminal behavior that made Wayne Enterprises powerful is narratively foisted off on Thomas Wayne, Bruce Wayne’s father.

    Alidoro aka Parrot / Alidoro and Parrot - In Lies of P Alidoro is actually the Parrot who killed the real Alidoro over a financial dispute and took his place. The original Alidoro is Eugenie’s brother and has looked after her from afar, Parrot seems to know this and has a distinct dislike for Eugenie. In the book Parrot briefly mocks Piocchio for falling victim to Fox and Cat’s con and has no other role, Alidoro is a Mastiff police dog (probably Italian Mastiff) who chases Pinocchio and tries to swim after him in the ocean, but nearly drowns, begging for help Pinocchio saves him and Alidoro promises to return the favor if ever needed, which in about 5 minutes it is, a monstrous looking fisherman has caught Pinocchio and intends to ear him, Alidoro wanting to steal the fisherman’s food, sees Pinocchio and grabs him, running them both to safety. This makes both Alidoro’s heroic figures, albeit both who’ve worked for questionable sorts (the gendarmes in the book and the Alchemists in Lies of P). Alidoro was probably changed to a Shepherd dog mask to fit with the Bavarian setting of the Lies of P.

    Eugenie / no literary equivalent - I liked Eugenie in Lies of P and I hope we learn more of her story in the DLC.

    Undead Monsters / Green Haired Fisherman - I found the description of the monstrous fisherman to be reminiscent of the undead in Lies of P and wouldn’t be surprised if it partially inspired their design.

    Fox and Cat / Fox and Cat - these characters are almost as important as Pinocchio himself in the book yet diverge in some important ways. In lies of P Fox’s real name is Claudia Volfe, she’s part of The Bastards group of Stalkers. Cat pretends to be her long lost little brother but isn’t in reality (and he’s a Sweeper, which is a rival Stalker group), it’s unclear if Claudia knows this but her love for Cat is real, his apparently real blindness is the motivation for most of their efforts which is why if you offer them enough Gold Coin Fruits to heal Cat’s blindness they relent and will never fight you. In the book they are unrepentant scoundrels (an actual cat, who pretends to be blind, and fox, who pretends to be lame) who realizing Pinocchio has money start a con. A nearby bird tries to warn Pinocchio so Cat eats him. They tell Pinocchio of a field where he can “plant his coins and a thousand new coins will grow on a tree” (thus the inspiration for Gold Coin Tree in Lies of P), they get him to an inn, eat a massive meal, stick Pinocchio with the bill, and tell him where to go at midnight, meanwhile they dress as bandits and wait for him (translated by Murray as assassins). During a scuffle Pinocchio bites off Cat’s paw, they later catch and hang him, as Pinocchio has put his money in his mouth and won’t open it, but being a puppet he dies very slowly and they decide to come back later. Interestingly this hanging if Pinocchio was where the original story ended. The newspaper convinced Collodi to continue the story several months later due to popularity. After Cat and Fox have left the Blue Haired Fairy saves Pinocchio. Shortly Pinocchio sees Cat and Fox again, and being dense still doesn’t realize they were the bandits even after noticing Cat’s missing paw. They continue with the coin tree con since killing him didn’t work, Pinocchio plants the money and of course Cat and Fox steal them and disappear as soon as his back is turned. This is when Parrot mocks Pinocchio for being a dolt. Later on when Pinocchio has learned to work and care for others he sees Cat and Fox again, now Cat is actually blind and Fox is lame and missing their tail, Pinocchio refuses to believe they need help and leaves them by the roadside to their own fortunes.

    The Submarine / The Dog Fish aka Shark - in the book a shark, not a whale, eats Gepetto, and eventually eats Pinocchio too. I wondered if the submarine P used was meant to represent that and low and behold, you can see that the front end is painted to look like a shark and there is machinery that looks like gills.

    Romeo aka Candlewick aka The King of Puppets / Romeo aka Candlewick - Romeo seems to have been largely invented by Collodi when he needed someone capable of talking Pinocchio into going with him to the Land of Boobies where there would be no school or any other requirements of boys to do anything but play and horse around. It was already established that Pinocchio was doing well at school and didn’t get along with the non-studious boys. But voilà we get Romeo, known as Candlewick for his tall and thin beanpole look, who is the one ne’erdowell who is Pinocchio’s favorite friend against every adult’s advice. He talks Pinocchio into going with him instead of finishing school and of course they are both turned into donkeys and sold (into slavery) by the coachman. Only Pinocchio, being a puppet, gets to survive this and Candlewick dies as a donkey. Pinocchio encounters him again right before he dies and grieves him. In Lies of P Romeo is Carlos’ friend and a puppet with an awakened ego (it is not clear how Romeo became a puppet), he seems to remember much more than P and, if there is a good guy of this story, it probably is Romeo doing the best he can in an impossible situation he had no hand in creating or perpetuating. He also knows Gepetto is a monster and will harm P, who Romeo considers to be Carlos (while Gepetto does not). Romeo tries to warn P multiple times, and when P obstinately pushes him, cries before forcing himself to fight P despite obviously not wanting to and feeling forced into it. I really like Romeo’s design in Lies of P, he’s tall and thin so it fits with his Candlewick nickname (which we find he has in Lies of P too). While Carlos was at Monad Charity House as a boarding school, Romeo was an orphan there. The adult who introduced the two sounded like Sophia. Carlos and Romeo both seemed to want to be trained as Stalkers and pestered an older adult female Stalker for assistance (we don’t know her name, she appeared to have a large feather as her only defining feature). The Stalker found them annoying and refused to help.

    Simon Manus and Laxasia / no literary equivalents - I’m lumping these two together as they function as a villain and villain’s right hand trope. What is more Manus is just a trope as a megalomaniac villain who’s plans got out of hand and is now demented and harmed by his actions nearly as badly as his victims. Laxasia might be more interesting, we don’t really know what her motivations are. She’s the sole character who might be the mysterious female stalker who found Carlos’ body. She might be one of the “three” spoken about in one collectible that mentioned an alchemist (Manus) a tinkerer (probably Gepetto), and a stalker (Laxasia or possibly Venigni’s alter ego Stalker) that originally worked together.

    Giangio / Giangio - in the book Giangio is a farmer who bought Candlewick (Romeo) as a donkey and when Candlewick dies he allows Pinocchio to do his old job of pumping water, which Pinocchio does to earn milk to give to Gepetto to nurse him back to health. In Lies of P we meet Giangio who is an alchemist who claims not to be and wants Gold Coin Fruit, claiming he has the Petrification Disease (he doesn’t). He later reveals his real name to us: P.P. or Phillipus Paracelsus, who was actually a real life alchemist with the most impressively long name I’ve run across in awhile: Philippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim. Note the Hohenheim, fans of The Full Metal Alchemist will recognize that as the absentee father of the main characters who’d achieved eternal life via alchemy. We see in an end game cut scene that Giangio is part of an organization that somehow deals with immortality and immortals, in his final letter he even congratulates P on “being born” as a brother immortal, implying he is also immortal. The whole reveal of Giangio/Hohenheim feels very League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and I would not be surprised to see a version of that in a sequel.


    Characters from other media:
    D. Gray is the painter of Carlos’ portrait, obviously referring to Dorian Gray of A Portrait of Dorian Gray, who is a kind of immortal.

    Dorothy of the Wizard of Oz who we see click the heels of her red slippers while walking in Krat.

    The Arm of God - we don’t know much about what this thing is other than it powered Manus’ transformation as well as the Archbishop Andreus’ transformation during the time he’s stolen it. Gepetto also needs it to resurrect Carlos, presumably to create a new body for him. Its description said it was a literal arm of a deity which tried to elevate humans but failed and now ignores their cries, which could be a reference to Prometheus or a similar story from another pantheon or culture, perhaps Chinese as Eugenie and Alidoro’s family hail from “The Land of the Rising Sun” and worked closely with the alchemists for a time. Also this is the “arm” Giangio means when he says “we need to retrieve the arm”, not P’s Legion arm.
  • TymanTheLongTymanTheLong556,132
    Posted on 11 September 24 at 01:01, Edited on 11 September 24 at 01:19 by TymanTheLong
    Lies of P Story

    So let me get straight what I think the story here is and what I’m still confused about. Maybe you all can help me fill in gaps (or disagree with my version of events).

    Gepetto has a real son, Carlos but is an absentee father. He leaves him at Monad Charity House, a place that originally served just orphans, training them in a trade. Now Monad Charity House functions as both this and a boarding school for the less wanted offspring of the rich and powerful.

    While there Carlos is introduced to Romeo (nicknamed Candlewick) and the two become fast friends. Romeo is an actual orphan and the adult woman who introduced them seems to be Sophia.

    Both Romeo and Carlos seem to want to be trained as Stalkers (guards and rogue puppet hunters), even going to so far as to waylay a mysterious visiting stalker they admire. The Stalker is a woman and seems to have what appears to be a long, vertical feather on the front of her headband. She also has Gemini as her puppet cricket, though Gemini doesn’t later remember anything about her.

    Carlos is killed and the mysterious stalker woman finds his body and grieves, saying “if I had only known…” though we don’t know what happened or what she thought she might have prevented.

    Somehow Romeo must have been killed as well, though whether at the same time or during some other misadventure we do not know.

    Venigni as a child witnesses his parents murdered in front of him, Bruce Wayne style, after seeing his favorite movie with them. The murderer is Arlecchino, a puppet with an awakened ergo and thus free will.

    World wide puppets are made but the discovery of ergo in Krat allows them to build much more advanced and sophisticated puppets. Ergo is the remains of a human soul, and can occasionally “awaken” allowing the puppet access to their old memories and habits, also seemingly freeing them from The Grand Covenant.

    The Grand Covenant is simply Isaac Asmimov’s Three Laws of Robotics from his I, Robot series, with the addition of “Puppets cannot lie” to fit the traditional Pinocchio narrative.

    Venigni is raised by his butler puppet, Pulcinella, whose own ego awoke upon seeing the boy in such pain. Venigni is aware of his butler’s awoken ego and loves him like a surrogate father. He grows to become a master of industry in Krat, using ergo to mass produce superior puppets no other city can match while installing them all with The Grand Covenant that Gepetto both designed and, unknown to Venigni, corrupted to force puppets to obey Gepetto above all else. Since Venigni’s story closely mirrors Bruce Wayne/Batman’s origin it is possible Venigni also secretly becomes a Stalker during this time.

    Few people in Krat understand what ergo is or that puppets can awaken though Gepetto and Venigni are two that do.

    While Carlos was alive Gepetto seemed to be working on a project with the Alchemists. Simon Manus at the time was both the subordinate and an experiment of Valentinus, the leader of the alchemists and Sophia’s father. Simon Manus developed the ability to read memories from ergo (but didn’t seem to need to “eat” the ergo to do so like Experiment 820 who P meets). Sophia, whether by experiment or natural ability, gained the ability to both “hear ergo whispers”, making her a Listener (there were other Listeners) but also to affect the flow of time, the ability she puts to use eventually whenever P falls in battle (she rewinds time to give him another chance). Simon Manus falls in love with both Sophia and her power but she rejects him, especially what she perceives to be his impure intentions toward her powers. After Valentinus either dies or is deposed he seizes control of the Alchemists and confines Sophia to her room where her body is imprisoned in what appears to be a human bird cage while her spirit roams via the ergo.

    Other people working on the project with the Alchemists included Eugenie’s unnamed brother (who eventually fled and became Alidoro) and Giangio. It is unclear of anyone knew of Giangio’s true identity.

    The project seemed to revolve around The Arm of God, a powerful artifact with mysterious properties, which is a literal dismembered arm belonging to what everyone believes is an old god that had tried and failed to “lift humanity up” somehow (this sounds similar to the story of Prometheus but may have also been a story from a different culture, particularly Chinese culture). The Arm of God seems to have been provided by Giangio, who later says he’ll need to get it back, but he may have had assistance in getting it from Eugenie’s parents and brother. It’s unclear what happens to Eugenie’s parents, other than they are also absentee parents, but her brother is horrified by the callous nature of the Alchemists and flees, becoming Alidoro to conceal his real identity and watch over Eugenie from afar.

    Whatever the original project was it seems to have either resulted in failure or caused the collaborators to become at odds with each other, we only know that it partially touched on The Petrification Disease and Ergo.

    At some point The Workshop Tower collapses for unspecified reasons, Alidoro and Eugenie were both there when this happened. Whatever the details this seems to have deeply affected Venigni, Eugenie, and many of the normal citizens of Krat.

    Between the failure of his work and Carlos’ death Gepetto spirals badly. In the hopes of ressurecting Carlos he uses his superior puppetry skills to create a puppet made partially of Carlos’ body, The Nameless Puppet, he powered it with many ergos but seemed to find that the Nameless Puppet was a failure, it was uncontrollable outside Gepetto’s direct control.

    So Gepetto created P, who is entirely a puppet, but with Carlos’ actual ergo. This seemed mostly an attempt to safeguard Carlos’ ergo/soul in a powerful body but for whatever reason Gepetto deactivated P while he moved on to his next goal. Gepetto seems to have believed he needed The Arm of God to truly create a body into which he could resurrect Carlos, so he started the Puppet Frenzy to generate the chaos he needed to fight The Alchemists and steal the arm.

    In the chaos of the Puppet Frenzy, Archbishop Andreus both sheltered the poor at his Abbey and managed to steal the Arm of God, mostly for what he later indicates was “greed of gold”. This results in his transformation into a monstrous beast which P later fights. As a monster Andreus laments “I was not the only one greedy for gold, why did this happen to me?!”

    The Alchemist’s use the chaos at the Abbey to steal the Arm of God back. Whether due to Andreus’ transformation or The Alchemist’s efforts to retrieve the Arm, the Petrification Disease and its “cure” is spread to the refugees, most of whom become monstrous undead.

    Simon Manus and The Alchemists have discovered that The Petrification Disease locks a person’s ergo in stasis in their body’s which can then be easily harvested, so they spread it to the entire populace of Krat. They’ve further found that their “cure” for the Petrification Disease which involves The Arm of God, while resulting most often in monstrous mutation resulting in undead creatures, can rarely force an evolution into immortality and inhuman powers. Simon Manus embarks on creating this “evolution of humanity’s potential” while slowly going mad himself, finally transforming himself into a powerful but monstrous and misshapen being that P eventually defeats.

    After Carlos’ death Romeo’s ergo was made into a puppet that awoke and had the ability to communicate with other puppets telepathically over the ergo waves. It’s possible Romeo could even awaken the ergo of other puppets. Realizing that Gepetto was causing puppets to murder the citizens of Krat and now Simon Manus is spreading a plague and monstrous mutations, Romeo, now The King of Puppets, hijacks the mindless puppet rampage and uses them to try and stop the spread of The Petrification Disease and the Alchemists’ mutations, particularly among the poor. Romeo, recognizing Carlos’ soul in P, and Gepetto’s probable bad intentions toward him, tries to both warn P and get his help multiple times, P rejects this and after Romeo cries and tries to stop P from stopping his puppet army, dies at P’s hands. The puppets seem to genuinely have loved Romeo and mourn him.

    P, having been either temporarily or permanently abandoned by Gepetto on the train car with his secret puppet workshop, with a broken Gemini cricket puppet nearby, is found and awakened by Sophia. Sophia says she wants his help saving Krat but really wants his help to die. Her powers over time may have aided her in finding the one being that could do both. P finds Gemini and brings him along, yet Gemini never remembers things he should, such as his memories of Carlos.

    Whether Gepetto always planned on using P to help prepare Carlos’ soul for the new body Gepetto has planned or simply pivoted to the idea upon seeing P awake and involved, Gepetto immediately begins using P to both put down the puppet resistance that Romeo had created and try to access The Arm of God again.

    Giangio having abandoned the Alchemists pretends to be a poor ex farmer that wants Gold Coin Fruit to cure his Petrification Disease, which he doesn’t actually have. However he is able to make a cure out of it for Lady Antonia at P’s request. Giangio’s real motivation seems to be observation of P as a possible new immortal. Giangio’s real name is Philippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim, a foreign alchemist and doctor that has already achieved immortality and that works for a shadowy organization that deals with immortals and immortality. (Side note: this was a real person historically and he has been used in other fictional works)

    Gepetto is successful in getting P to kill both Fuoco (the source of Romeo’s reinforcements) and Romeo and put an end to Romeo’s resistance to both him and The Alchemists. Krat is then immediately overrun with The Alchemist monsters and vast ergo crystal erupt from the ground destroying much of Krat.

    Simon Manus fearing Gepetto might actually thwart his plans, attacks Hotel Krat and kidnaps Gepetto, locking him in their tower stronghold. This was a tactical mistake on his part, as the only door allowing access to The Relic of Trismigistus (an ergo mine under Hotel Krat responsible for its reputation as haunted) was locked and could only be opened from their side, this was the only remaining access to the island containing The Alchemist’s towwer stronghold. The Alchemist’s having opened it and angered Lady Antonia, who owned the hotel and had been longtime friends with Gepetto, showed P how to get through the door so he could attack the tower, save Gepetto, and stop Simon Manus.

    P, miraculously accomplishes all this, along the way he meets Sophia’s real body and (I like to think canonically) grants her wish to die. She gives him her soul ergo to assist him in stopping Manus.

    P rescues Gepetto but instead of returned to Hotel Krat, Gepetto lurks and waits for his chance to seize both The Arm of God and convince P to give up his heart so Gepetto can finalize whatever his plan is to resurrect Carlos (and kill everyone at the hotel and resurrecting them as puppets that Gepetto presumably controls). While Gepetto seems to have created P in a way that prevents his ergo from awakening, certain aspects of Carlos’ character leak through, particularly Carlos’ stubbornness (which Romeo also remembers vividly). As well Gepetto seems to have underestimated how absorbing ergo for power would allow P to become so human to the degree it happens that even when this process isn’t complete Gepetto is disturbed by its implications. Sophia, perhaps knowing ultimately what would happen, has been assisting P in this process all along.

    Gepetto, being refused by P, attempts to take his heart by force, by activating The Nameless Puppet and controlling him directly. But during the vicious combat P damages The Nameless Puppet and accidentally cuts several fo Gepetto’s controlling strings. The Nameless Puppet flies into an even more violent attack and nearly kills P, Gepetto seeing P’s heart about to be destroyed tries to stop The Nameless Puppet, but is fatally impaled instead. P takes this moment to seize and crush The Nameless Puppet’s mechanical heart, hears Gepetto’s brief apology and watches him die.

    Now human enough to empathize with others, P (probably with Venigni’s help) creates a puppet body for Sophia and puts her ergo/soul back inside. P either faints or dies from this sacrifice and Sophia, who awakes in her puppet body with an already awoken ergo (and perhaps echoing her role in The Adventures of Pinocchio) possibly saves his life off screen. Regardless we see her cradle P’s body gently and with love but without obvious grief.

    Giangio’s report to his organization in this ending still mentions a “new immortal brother” so implies P survived his sacrifice in the resurrection of Sophia. Giangio then complains and insists he will absolutely find Dorothy (of The Wizard of Oz) after he returns home but has obviously miscalculated as Dorothy has already arrived in Krat (which he just left).

    Questions I still have:
    Why did the Workshop Tower Collapse and when? What was the specific impact of this disaster?

    Who was the mysterious Stalker Lady that Carlos and Romeo wanted to learn from and that later found Carlos’s body? Laxasia is possible but doesn’t fit very well, the only other possibility is Fox, who’s real name is Claudia Volfe, a Stalker member of The Bastards and actually of noble birth. If so she clearly doesn’t recognize P as Carlos.

    What is Laxasia’s motivation? Why does she decide to sacrifice everything to be Simon Manus’ “sword”? She’s probably the only boss fight without a clear motivation. Was Laxasia altered by Manus’ evolution or were her powers strictly from her sword? She doesn’t look entirely human but doesn’t sport any of the canisters of Corpse Fluid or other alchemical fluids that other “evolved” alchemists do.

    What is the secret behind the Gold Stargazer with a golden bird perched upon it on The Path of the Pilgrim? Many speculated it’s DLC related but during NG and NG+ the bird merely flapped its wings at me when I tried to use it, in NG++ the bird flew away and has never returned. Is there a secret here to be discovered or unlocked?

    How much did Lady Antonia know about Gepetto’s plans? She seems to have known a lot but not everything and maybe even objected to some, though she never warned P.

    What happened to Romeo to cause him to die?

    How did Carlos die?

    Does Venigni put on an animal Stalker mask fashioned like a bat and run around Krat at night and does he savagely beat up small time criminals stealing rich people’s property while doing so?

    How did Polendina “delete” his memories when grieving the death of Lady Antonia? Is this some sort of self induced puppet lobotomy that any puppet can do? Is an awoken ergo something a puppet can reject? Does that imply greater level of free will than humans seem to believe puppets capable of having?

    Which ending is “canon”?

    Canonically does P help Sophia die or force her to live?

    Does P actually survive in the Rise of P ending?

    How much does Sophia know about the future? What are her limits?

    Who exactly does Giangio/Phillipus Paracelsus work for/with?

    What tragedy created a massive amount of ergo (human souls) under Krat?
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