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Discounting Unobtainable Achievements From Total Gamerscore

AuthorMessage
KJT CD ACD
319,703
KJT CD ACD
Posted on 07 December 12 at 11:12, Edited on 07 December 12 at 11:14 by KJT CD ACD
I think that if a game has unobtainable achievements - by TA's standards of server closure, glitched and never going to be fixed, etc - then those achievements should not be counted towards a game's total for the full clear.

A prime example here, I think, is Revolution (WP), as it has one achievement that will never be obtainable due to MS refusing to release patches that PlayfulArt have sent them, constantly finding new problems with them. People have slogged out this game and taken all but the last achievement (which is locked only because of a simple number being incorrectly programmed - 4 moves is the only possible way to finish level 47 and it requires 3 for gold) and are denied a full clear because of MS' incompetence.

The same goes, I feel, for server closures. What if you picked up the game after the servers were closed down and have no way of getting the achievements? What if you were half way through getting the achievements at the servers closed? Is it not enough that they're taking away our gamerscore, but they have to deny us a Full Clear as well?

I'm not sure what the motivations are behind the current system - if it goes of xbox.com then I can understand the system totally - but I wonder if the idea of making FCs out of games with unobtainable achievements, provided all obtainable achievements are taken and a reasonable amount of time has passed since the rest of the achievements became unobtainable has passed, has been pondered.

Apologies for the wall of text, but I've been thinking about this for a while and have implemented a system of my own for tracking my FCs privately (I keep a list in MS Word and compare it to my TA to see where I can make improvements).

toast

KJ
Don't hate the game or the player; hate the developer. ~-=|KJT CD ACD|=-~
AndyLSimmons
112,405
AndyLSimmons
Posted on 07 December 12 at 11:47
If the achievement has never been obtainable for anyone, then this is quite reasonable.

If the achievement has been discontinued, then no. They were obtainable at one point so some people will have them.
xPut Name Herex
Posted on 07 December 12 at 12:28, Edited on 07 December 12 at 12:28 by xPut Name Herex
KJT CD ACD said:
A prime example here, I think, is Revolution (WP), as it has one achievement that will never be obtainable due to MS refusing to release patches that PlayfulArt have sent them, constantly finding new problems with them. People have slogged out this game and taken all but the last achievement (which is locked only because of a simple number being incorrectly programmed - 4 moves is the only possible way to finish level 47 and it requires 3 for gold) and are denied a full clear because of MS' incompetence.
I find it funny that people generally assume that a patch is not released due to Microsoft's "incompetence", when Microsoft finds new problems with the patch. The company releasing the game already got it wrong the first time, what makes you think they'll do any better the second time (look at Ghostbusters). Microsoft may be protecting us too (look at Dead Island's Day 1 patch, which MS refused to release, and in the end it turned out it would corrupt the save files of people playing on the PS3 or PC who didn't have the patch verification). Seems to me like "incompetence" is actually MS doing exactly what we pay them to do, protect us.

More on topic, I disagree for two reasons: the first is that Discontinued achievements (which you lumped together with Unobtainable achievements, although they are different) were quite obtainable for some people. It's not fair to those people who earned the achievement to suddenly say "oh, they'll count for you, but not these people", especially in the cases where the achievement may have required a long grind/high skill/etc.

I'm also against not counting Unobtainable achievements in completion percentages, but am more open to arguments on that matter.
I miss the good old days of WW2 Call of Duty
FrustratedNerd
Posted on 07 December 12 at 16:50, Edited on 07 December 12 at 16:50 by FrustratedNerd
I think if you're such a completionist you should be weary about what you start, and I disagree with this idea.

I started Marble Blast Ultra, knowing the game and the DLC had been discontinued. I won the code online, was given a warning, and started it anyways. Yes, I do worry about my completion percentage but I'm also aware that sometimes "what I want to play" will trump "that number", almost every time.

EDIT: Whether obtained prior, or never.
Twitter: @ROBomination | Xbox Ambassador | DO NOT: Take the internet seriously.
KJT CD ACD
319,703
KJT CD ACD
Posted on 08 December 12 at 00:41
xPut Name Herex: First, let me say you're absolutely right about me lumping Discontinued and Unobtainable achievements together. That was unintentional and sort of undermines my idea, especially considering I just wanted Unobtainable achievements to be discounted. I had actually forgotten that Discontinued achievements were a thing, but it makes sense - re, server closures - when I think about it.

Second, in the case of Revolution, Microsoft is at fault here. I'm not going to argue that MS has denied patches for the protection of their clients before - I will even applaud the practice - but they have consistent denied every one of PlayfulArt's patches over the course of a year after Revolution's release. Now, I simply refuse to believe that PlayfulArt are -that- bad at programming that every patch they could have made for what seems to me to be a relatively simple issue has actually had a problem. I'll leave a link to the xbox360achievement.com thread where I was keeping up with the latest news on the issue, including e-mails directly from the PlayfulArt source, so you can see for yourself that, in this case, the reason the achievement is Unobtainable is MS' fault.

Back on topic, I'd like to revise my original idea: any achievement that has been Unobtainable since the launch of the game (re, Revolution, Hellboy: Science of Evil) should be discounted from the game's total score. I retract the bit about server closures, because as xPut Name Herex pointed out, those are Discontinued achievements, not Unobtainable.

http://www.xbox360achievements.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36...
Don't hate the game or the player; hate the developer. ~-=|KJT CD ACD|=-~
DOOM The Return
Posted on 08 December 12 at 01:13
Smash TV comes to mind.
My teeth taste funny today. They seem more jagged than normal.
moogless
210,274
moogless
Posted on 08 December 12 at 06:55
I have agreed with this before and I feel like restating my idea here. Unobtainable achievements moved into their own separate DLC, and people who have the settings "No DLC, and DLC I own, will both be able to get a completion message for the game(as well as 100% completed being obtainable as long as no discontiuneds are there) and for people who want to include every single achievement including dlc they don't own, nothing will be changed.
Remember, science rhymes with compliance. Do you know what doesn't rhyme with compliance? NEUROTOXIN
xPut Name Herex
Posted on 08 December 12 at 07:11
Definitely shouldn't be moving it into it's own DLC pack. Opens the argument for move of Online Only achievements to it's own DLC pack because one can't get the completion due to not having internet, peripheral achievements getting moved to DLC packs due to not owning the right peripherals, split screen getting its own pack, etc etc.

In fact, I am now very much against this idea. The achievement is in the game. It is part of the 100%. Being unable to unlock it does not change the fact it is part of the 100%. I've had plenty of exams where a professor never taught the material they used for a question on the exam, but that doesn't change the fact it's part of the 100 points on the exam, no matter how much I'd like to change that. 100% is not always achievable, and that needs to be accepted. It sucks, but we really shouldn't be siphoning off achievements from the game for ANY reason.
I miss the good old days of WW2 Call of Duty
moogless
210,274
moogless
Posted on 08 December 12 at 07:29
xPut Name Herex said:
Definitely shouldn't be moving it into it's own DLC pack. Opens the argument for move of Online Only achievements to it's own DLC pack because one can't get the completion due to not having internet, peripheral achievements getting moved to DLC packs due to not owning the right peripherals, split screen getting its own pack, etc etc.

In fact, I am now very much against this idea. The achievement is in the game. It is part of the 100%. Being unable to unlock it does not change the fact it is part of the 100%. I've had plenty of exams where a professor never taught the material they used for a question on the exam, but that doesn't change the fact it's part of the 100 points on the exam, no matter how much I'd like to change that. 100% is not always achievable, and that needs to be accepted. It sucks, but we really shouldn't be siphoning off achievements from the game for ANY reason.
I think incompetence on the developers side is a good reason. also those would be stupid arguments that would get ignored.
Remember, science rhymes with compliance. Do you know what doesn't rhyme with compliance? NEUROTOXIN
KJT CD ACD
319,703
KJT CD ACD
Posted on 08 December 12 at 07:47
xPut Name Herex said:
I've had plenty of exams where a professor never taught the material they used for a question on the exam, but that doesn't change the fact it's part of the 100 points on the exam, no matter how much I'd like to change that.
This isn't an argument against the issue, this is an unfair comparison. Yes, your prof. may not have taught the material in the exam, but your prof. likely didn't write the exam. If he did write the exam and put in information that was never taught to you (spanning all sources of information such as textbooks, lectures and homework, etc) then that's entirely unfair. If the source material isn't available, how can you be expected to answer the question?

Same goes for the games I'm suggesting have achievements re/moved from their total score. If the requirements of the achievement cannot, in any way, be met from launch, how can we be expected to pop the achievement?
Don't hate the game or the player; hate the developer. ~-=|KJT CD ACD|=-~
Solario32
192,486
Solario32
Posted on 08 December 12 at 21:11
Unobtainable achievements since the game's release shouldn't count. Discontinued achievements should count.
System of a Dom
Posted on 08 December 12 at 21:53
AndyLSimmons said:
If the achievement has never been obtainable for anyone, then this is quite reasonable.

If the achievement has been discontinued, then no. They were obtainable at one point so some people will have them.
DOOM The Return said:
Smash TV comes to mind.
Both of these were going to be my points.
In this world gone mad, we won't spank the monkey, the monkey will spank us!
scrltspdrslayer
Posted on 08 December 12 at 22:42
What's wrong with smash TV?

In the case of GhostBusters: The Video Game I agree. There are some achievements out there that are unobtainable and they should be removed from our achievement lists at least on here and allow us to have a full completion percentage
xPut Name Herex
Posted on 08 December 12 at 22:56
scrltspdrslayer said:
What's wrong with smash TV?

In the case of GhostBusters: The Video Game I agree. There are some achievements out there that are unobtainable and they should be removed from our achievement lists at least on here and allow us to have a full completion percentage
There are no Unobtainable achievements for Ghostbusters. Terminal Reality did patch it, even if it didn't fully fix it for those who played before the patch.
I miss the good old days of WW2 Call of Duty
DOOM The Return
Posted on 08 December 12 at 23:29
scrltspdrslayer said:
What's wrong with smash TV?

Unobtainable achievement for everyone.
My teeth taste funny today. They seem more jagged than normal.
System of a Dom
Posted on 09 December 12 at 07:39
scrltspdrslayer said:
What's wrong with smash TV?
Smash TVGame MasterThe Game Master achievement in Smash TV worth 50 pointsFinish the entire game without continuing while using default settings
Never been obtainable.
In this world gone mad, we won't spank the monkey, the monkey will spank us!
KJT CD ACD
319,703
KJT CD ACD
Posted on 09 December 12 at 10:35
Solario32 said:
Unobtainable achievements since the game's release shouldn't count. Discontinued achievements should count.
Excellent summation, I couldn't have put it better myself. toast
Don't hate the game or the player; hate the developer. ~-=|KJT CD ACD|=-~
Uranium Deposit
Posted on 26 January 13 at 05:54, Edited on 26 January 13 at 05:57 by Uranium Deposit
Sorry to bump an old post, but was interested in this topic tonight.

This problem is especially prevalent on Windows Phone games. About 1 in 4 games has an unobtainable achievement. Occasionally these get patched, however most of them do not and when a patch does come it has historically been 9+ months from release to patch. It has been well documented by WPCentral, X360A and many others that the support provided to developers by Microsoft has been terrible. Many of them create patches and updates which never reach the end users because MS' certification process is changing on a weekly basis.

I would not like to have unobtainables bunched in with the DLC switch, however if an achievement has remained unobtainable for a set time period I think TA should automatically count all those without it, and only it, as a completed game. This could be done using the achievement flag, but it would of course require the game info team to be much more strict about applying that flag.

Examples of unobtainables: Lets Golf 2 (WP), Osmos (GFWL), Rapala (360), Minisquadron (WP)
Uranium Deposit
Posted on 26 January 13 at 06:15
On a related note: Why when I go to Site Pages > Achievements > Flagged "Unobtainable", there are only about a dozen listed achievements, and none of the ones listed under My Pages > Achievements > Flagged "Unobtainable"?
xPut Name Herex
Posted on 26 January 13 at 06:17
Are you hitting "Achievements you don't have" first?
I miss the good old days of WW2 Call of Duty