Investigations Questions

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Music Game Cheaters

  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 22 November 13 at 17:40, Edited on 22 November 13 at 17:42 by Permalink
    Hey TA,

    For the past several months I've been noticing plummeting ratios in some of my hardest worked for achievements such as 'A Very Troubled Youngster' in Green Day: Rock Band which was 12.45 when I obtained it and is now around 9.5. This wasn't the only achievement, I've been noticing plenty of other drum related achievements that require intense training and practice being earned by a wave of people who actually have apparently little to no skill on the drums.

    So how are they doing this?

    Well, several people out there (I won't name and shame because I think that's against site rules, but I can and will link you to various blogs and pages that people dedicate to cheating these achievements) have been using MIDI files to cheat difficult achievements that usually sat in the 7.0/8.0 ratio level.

    It's pretty much a program which plays the drums for you, you take apart your kit, solder a few wires together, connect it to your computer and the computer will hit 100% of the notes for you without you doing anything besides clicking a mouse.

    Something needs to be done about this, it's gone on for far too long and more and more blogs are popping up bragging about how they've earned all these achievements. How are people like me, who take pride in earning achievements with practice ever going to climb the Music and Rhythm leaderboards when people are just using programs and files to do all the work for them?

    Why does this need to be done?

    Firstly, it's ruining the experience of Trueachievements for me and many other people I know, I'm definitely not the only one complaining about this and I hope to get some support for the cause of banning these cheaters.

    Secondly, it's ruining the TA ratio and TA score for all these difficulty related achievements. Ratios are plummeting into the 'Easier category' and my once proud completion of every Guitar Hero title has become meaningless to me with so many cheaters out there who can do the same with a few clicks of their mouse.

    What I'd like to see done about this

    At the VERY least, I'd like for you guys to explain to me why you can't do anything about this. I've reported many players multiple times and NOTHING has been done to resolve this issue.

    What I'd really like though, is to these these cheaters removed from Music and Rhythm leaderboards so people who spend blood, sweat and tears earning these tough achievements get the recognition they deserve.

    What I'd LOVE is for these people to be removed from the site, and/or branded as cheaters. As a enthusiastic Music gamer, this issue frustrates me a lot.

    Thanks for your time reading this, and I hope we can resolve this issue.
    Oddworld X
  • Posted on 22 November 13 at 18:48Permalink
    Hello Oddworld X

    This will be a lengthy explanation, so I'll give you the short answer here first. We do not consider this to be cheating based on our rules and guidelines. We will not take action on these individuals.

    As you stated in your post, you deserve an explanation. I know I would certainly like one in your shoes. So here we go.

    The criteria we use to label someone a cheater as found in the cheater policy (Cheat Policy) contains the following:

    *** Spoiler - click to reveal ***


    The only item on that list that this comes close to is the last one. This short cut does require PC software to use. However, it does not require modifying the console or the game files to use, which is really what we're after. The software is completely external, and is comparable to using a turbo or programmable macro controller to automate gameplay. Are the people doing this any better or worse than those who use turbo controllers, use YouTube videos to sing into a mic, use chairs as stand-ins for Kinect games, etc? The criteria of the achievements are still being fulfilled.

    The second issue is that we have no way to enforce it. Let's say that we hypothetically viewed this as cheating and decided to pursue it. How do we detect it? There would not be achievements unlocked offline that require online play. There would not be achievements unlocking on identical time stamps that would otherwise be impossible to do so. There would not be achievements unlocking out of order. The MIDI files essentially replicate how a "perfect player" would play the game, but this doesn't leave any evidence behind as to how that was done. We could at best wager a guess that someone used the MIDI files if they start and complete what most consider a difficult game in a few hours, but going after people based on guesses and hunches is a really bad path to wander down. Taking action against this would set a very poor precedent.

    That's the honest answer to why we're not doing anything about it. This surely isn't what you wanted to hear, but sometimes these things happen where new methods are discovered that bring down a high ratio achievement. Before the glitch was discovered, Far Cry 2 held a TA score around 4500 and the Warlord achievement was sitting at around 18. The achievement took hundreds of hours or a 26 hour non-stop marathon boost to complete. Once a glitch was discovered to get the achievement in around 90 mins, people were pretty pissed as they watched the ratios plummet and hundreds of hours of their time wasted. But it's not cheating, and we just have to accept that this is the new normal. This community has proven that it will find an easier more effective way of doing an achievement if it exists.

    With all that said, I understand your frustration. I've been in the same situation before with other achievements and it stings. But take solace in the fact that you can hold your head high and say "I did it the way it was intended to be done", which is something these other people can't say. Don't let a little number called a TA ratio devalue the self-appreciation and respect from others you've earned by doing things the old fashioned way.
  • Posted on 22 November 13 at 20:21Permalink
    Wow.... if only self-satisfaction and holding my head high earned me TA points. Yeah. Sad... but the whole thing stinks. To the core
  • LuckyKantLuckyKant545,304
    Posted on 23 November 13 at 17:25Permalink
    It sucks but it can't be proved.
    Hey Cousin, let's go bowling!
  • Posted on 24 November 13 at 02:25Permalink
    hoLLowPoint75 said:
    Wow.... if only self-satisfaction and holding my head high earned me TA points. Yeah. Sad... but the whole thing stinks. To the core
    Agreed. There are a few other situations like this that we can't touch because of similar reasons. Even though the rules sometimes let people get away with it, they protect more innocent people than those we could pursue.
  • Posted on 30 November 13 at 22:08Permalink
    Yeah, I was one of the last few to get the Warlord achievement (in Far Cry 2) the old fashioned way. I finished it up after months of grinding and about a month or 2 later the new method was released. I was not pissed as if that method was mentioned when I started it I would have taken it. I do miss the near 19 ratio though cry. I started to see a shit ton of people on my friends feed start to unlock it the same day they started the game and though "You tricky bastards" laugh
    Dead Rising Survivalist: 17d 06h 58m....5th in the WORLD!!!
  • Posted on 04 December 13 at 08:17, Edited on 04 December 13 at 08:18 by Multip1eSarcasmPermalink
    LuckyConquerer2 said:
    It sucks but it can't be proved.
    I'm sorry... but the people I refer to had a bloody blog on here with detailed instructions on how to create the bot and a free offer to provide the software. They also posted freely on their feed about how their BOT was doing the achievements for them... because they couldn't do it themselves.
  • LuckyKantLuckyKant545,304
    Posted on 04 December 13 at 11:18Permalink
    In that case, did you report them?

    Unless they admit it (like in a blog) it cannot be proved.
    Hey Cousin, let's go bowling!
  • planting42planting421,487,750
    Posted on 04 December 13 at 12:55, Edited on 04 December 13 at 12:56 by planting42Permalink
    hoLLowPoint75 said:
    LuckyConquerer2 said:
    It sucks but it can't be proved.
    I'm sorry... but the people I refer to had a bloody blog on here with detailed instructions on how to create the bot and a free offer to provide the software. They also posted freely on their feed about how their BOT was doing the achievements for them... because they couldn't do it themselves.
    See the IM's response.
    Music Game Cheaters
    www.GTASC.net
  • Posted on 18 January 14 at 15:41, Edited on 18 January 14 at 15:53 by MidlifeGamerAcePermalink
    Game saving needs to be removed from the policy as cheating because no one can prove who the save originally belonged to. (The player that used it or some other player on Xbox Live) an also there are in game glitches that may give multiple achievements at the same time.

    Does TA even look at the fact that people may have legitimately earned achievements Offline and then the profile having to be redownloaded due to it being corrupt on the hard drive before they could sync the offline achievements with the Xbox Live servers?

    How can someone report for game saving when you can only see the date the achievements were unlocked no timestamps are able to be seen when you compare games with others on the site so where is the proof of time an achievement is unlocked on the site. TA only shows you the dates that a player earns an achievement if they earned it while connected to xbox live so how does someone even report for gamesaving?
  • LuckyKantLuckyKant545,304
    Posted on 18 January 14 at 16:00, Edited on 18 January 14 at 16:00 by LuckyKantPermalink
    A game save can only belong to one gamer tag. It does not matter if you own both tags involved. I cannot go and get my game save from my old tags and use it to beat any of the following:
    Sleeping Dogs
    Modern Warfare 2
    World at War
    FIFA 11
    50 Cent: BOTS
    Skyrim
    UFC Personal Trainer
    Call of Juarez

    I have all those games in my house and have played them before. I also have dozens of other games that I could use to game save but I don't. Why? Because it is cheating. Earn it or burn it.

    There are tool that can be used to see the timestamp on Xbox.com. The IM team also use see the offline unlock order to look for abnormalities.

    You got caught. Stop whinging. Take it like a man/woman.
    Hey Cousin, let's go bowling!
  • Posted on 18 January 14 at 16:51, Edited on 18 January 14 at 16:53 by MidlifeGamerAcePermalink
    can u spell it is wining not winging

    i am mainly saying that blocking your games is unfair cause it also blocks you from using the major feature that you join the site for and that they could be more fair with the punishment.

    No tracking is unfair due to the fact that without a game list you can not even create sessions and it is a slim chance to find sessions for certain achievements now.

    why not just deduct the ta score from the cheated achievements and let the ta score only reflect the achievements that are earned either legit or via boosting cause even if someone cheated they have way more achievements that are legit or boosted than cheated

    and by the way they do not go by Microsoft cause if they did then boosting would not be supported either

    I want my game list back on the site even if my achievements for cheated games are blocked so I can create sessions for achievements i am trying to get.

    Why is it that TA is saying I cheated and Microsoft is not and I had Microsoft review my account 2-3 times and they do not seem to find anything suspicious about my achievements and they have more sophisticated tools than TA does but yet TA acts like they have the more sophisticated tools
  • LuckyKantLuckyKant545,304
    Posted on 18 January 14 at 17:04, Edited on 19 January 14 at 09:31 by LuckyKantPermalink
    MidlifeGamerAce said:
    can u spell it is wining not winging
    facepalm. I can spell. You cannot even copy what I said. I said whinging! Stop whinging!

    Please read the definition.

    You can create sessions for games that you do not have. There is a little trick that someone mentioned before but I cannot remember it.

    If the IM just deducted the score, many people would continue to cheat. They would be repeatedly reported and scanned, wasting the scanner's resources and the IT's time. They are volunteers.

    Boosting is not an issue with MS. MS also suck at enforcement, as the IM will tell you.

    Anyway, stop hijacking the thread.
    Hey Cousin, let's go bowling!
  • WarmedxMintsWarmedxMints912,808
    Posted on 18 January 14 at 17:15Permalink
    @ MidlifeGamerAce;

    It is unreasonable to expect this site to spend its money and resources scanning your Tag as they have obviously found something wrong with it. You are still able to create gaming sessions, that ability has not been removed. It is still possible, if you know how.

    We often hear of gamers claiming that Microsoft have gone through their tag and found nothing wrong or they haven't banned or reset them, so why should TA.

    There are a few points to take into consideration;

    --The average gamer will never get to speak with the MS enforcement team. Their identity is kept hidden for many reasons but also for their safety.
    --Anyone you speak to on the phone at MS will have no idea who the enforcement team are or how they operate. None of them have any authority over your gamertag.
    --Microsoft is a business which does not sell its product based on gamerscore, therefore, there is no reason for them to actively search for cheaters. It does not make business sense and they will only investigate a tag if enough people report you for cheating via the xbl service or multiple automated flags are thrown up.

    Also, this is a private site and has every right to refuse service to anyone. They have kindly allowed you to remain and have simple refused to track your achievements. I would say they have been extremely polite to you and if you continue to try their patience, I would be surprised if the didn't ban you.

    As others have said, accept what has happened, they are not going to change their minds and if you wish to be tracked again, start a new tag.
    http://www.trueachievements.com/gtasc-2014.htm
  • Posted on 19 January 14 at 05:27Permalink
    LuckyConquerer2 said:
    MidlifeGamerAce said:
    can u spell it is wining not winging
    facepalm. I can spell. You cannot even copy what I said. I said whinging! Stop whinging!

    Pleas read the definition.

    You can create sessions for games that you do not have. There is a little trick that someone mentioned before but I cannot remember it.

    If the IM just deducted the score, many people would continue to cheat. They would be repeatedly reported and scanned, wasting the scanner's resources and the IT's time. They are volunteers.

    Boosting is not an issue with MS. MS also suck at enforcement, as the IM will tell you.

    Anyway, stop hijacking the thread.
    Can you PLEAS learn to spell please! Omg! laugh
    THE NEW AND IMPROVED XBOX ONE.......FREE OF TYRANNICAL RULES AND REGS
  • LuckyKantLuckyKant545,304
    Posted on 19 January 14 at 09:30Permalink
    Haha, I missed an e. I suck at typing on the Ipad. Oopsie.
    Hey Cousin, let's go bowling!
  • MomijiMomiji791,165
    Posted on 19 January 14 at 14:39Permalink
    LuckyConquerer2 said:
    The IM team also use see the offline unlock order to look for abnormalities.
    Can they actually? Because if thats the case i would love to help them clean up the shmup leaderboards.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/ReazieTV
  • LuckyKantLuckyKant545,304
    Posted on 19 January 14 at 15:56Permalink
    They can indeed.
    Hey Cousin, let's go bowling!
  • Posted on 20 January 14 at 02:02Permalink
    Raezie said:
    LuckyConquerer2 said:
    The IM team also use see the offline unlock order to look for abnormalities.
    Can they actually? Because if thats the case i would love to help them clean up the shmup leaderboards.
    Yes we can. Report whoever you feel it is has cheated with as much detail as possible and we'll take a look at it.
  • Posted on 20 January 14 at 04:03Permalink
    CounterInsurgnt said:
    LuckyConquerer2 said:
    MidlifeGamerAce said:
    can u spell it is wining not winging
    facepalm. I can spell. You cannot even copy what I said. I said whinging! Stop whinging!

    Pleas read the definition.

    You can create sessions for games that you do not have. There is a little trick that someone mentioned before but I cannot remember it.

    If the IM just deducted the score, many people would continue to cheat. They would be repeatedly reported and scanned, wasting the scanner's resources and the IT's time. They are volunteers.

    Boosting is not an issue with MS. MS also suck at enforcement, as the IM will tell you.

    Anyway, stop hijacking the thread.
    Can you PLEAS learn to spell please! Omg! laugh
    whinging - to whinge

    its a real word, i would hazard a guess that the ones who don't seem to get this are yanks?....
    i'm pretty sure it's common enough here in the uk
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