Game Discussion: Banjo-Tooie Forum

Banjo-Tooie Multi-Genre Discussion

AuthorMessage
Posted on 23 May 16 at 12:42
Please use this thread to discuss this games classification under the new multi-genre system.

Click here to cast your votes.
Posted on 21 August 17 at 07:17
OfficerBarbrady has registered their disagreement about the genres applied to this game
By the site's definition of Metroidvania, this game would fall into it. There are many areas and challenges in the early levels that can only be accessed with powers/moves you get in the later worlds, thus needing a lot of backtracking. There are also puzzles that need to be started in one world and finished in another, adding to the backtracking needed. I've never seen anyone ever call Banjo Tooie a Metroidvania; but by the current site definition, it fits.
Zonrith1
550,299
Zonrith1
Posted on 22 August 17 at 13:42
The Banjo games actually got quite a bit of discussion when the Metroidvania definition was being crafted: Metroidvania: Discuss Definition Here

And, as that thread shows, there was debate about these. Some felt it meets the definition, some felt the progression aspects of the game weren't strong enough to deserve the tag.

Based off this request and those past discussions, I do lean towards adding the Metroidvania tag to this game (it was noted in my above-linked thread that Tooie did seem to have more backtracking than the other games in the series). But I would like to see some additional thoughts by players of this title.
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OfficerBarbrady
Posted on 22 August 17 at 17:14
Yeah I'd agree with Tooie getting it, although Kazooie not so much. As much as I remember, there's no backtracking needed and all the levels can be completed fully when they're first reached
S. A. W. F. T. SAWWWWWWFT
Allgorhythm
229,827
Allgorhythm
Posted on 07 October 17 at 15:49
Looking at the TA definition, Banjo-Tooie would qualify as a Metroidvania game.
Awoo
1,048,841
Awoo
Posted on 07 October 17 at 19:39, Edited on 07 October 17 at 19:41 by Awoo
Don't even think about it. If those games got the tag, then the TA definition is insanely wrong and needs to be scrapped immediately. Anyone who has played a single actual Metroidvania could tell you that in a heartbeat.
What can change the nature of a man?
Zonrith1
550,299
Zonrith1
Posted on 12 October 17 at 15:23
Misfit has agreed as well. Metroidvania is now tagged in.
Eclectic Gamers Podcast: http://eclecticgamers.com
Posted on 12 October 17 at 16:59
Awoo has registered their disagreement about the genres applied to this game
No. You are objectively wrong. Remove the tag, or we may as well remove the genre from the site altogether since it apparently has no fucking meaning aside from "game with backtracking". You guys clearly know jack shit about this genre, so stop pretending like you do.
Posted on 12 October 17 at 17:15
x Mataeus x has registered their disagreement about the genres applied to this game
Can't believe how many people know NOTHING about these genres. Remember the Roguelike and Sandbox vs open world discussions?

BANJO IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A METROIDVANIA. Fucking ridiculous! Metroid and Castlevania are sidescrolling, 2D open worlds with gated progression, one large map space and exploration / back tracking needed for progression. Banjo is split into levels. The fact that you can go back to previous ones is inconsequential.

I'd like to register my disagreement with the genre team as a whole. You guys have never gotten it, and never will, arrogantly stamping your shit stain on our beloved games.
Zonrith1
550,299
Zonrith1
Posted on 12 October 17 at 17:35
Disagreements with the Genre Time have been noted and shared with site management. Thank you.
Eclectic Gamers Podcast: http://eclecticgamers.com
OfficerBarbrady
Posted on 12 October 17 at 19:01
Man, imagine being this angry at a genre tag laugh
S. A. W. F. T. SAWWWWWWFT
Skeptical Mario
Posted on 12 October 17 at 19:47
I'm on the fence about Banjo-Tooie. When I was playing through it last year, it sure felt like a Metroidvania to me. In each world, I unlocked new abilities that were required both to progress and to backtrack.
Looking back now, that backtracking doesn't seem so significant. And there's something else, but I can't put my finger on it.
Posted on 12 October 17 at 20:09
Dwaggienite has registered their disagreement about the genres applied to this game
Metroid
Castlevania
A Boy and his Blob
Shadow Complex
Ducktales
Cave Story
Shantae
Guacamelee
Teslagrad
Hell Yeah! Wrath of the Dead Rabbit
Wonder Boy
The Swapper
Song of the Deep
Dust: An Elysian Tail

These above are metroidvanias.

If you think Banjo-Tooie deserves to be in the same league as these, you are absolute imbecile.

Metroidvanias are typically 2D side-scrollers based on progression on a screen-by-screen map based off of the screen moving to a new 'map' room when you enter through a door splitting an area.

Banjo Tooie is not like this, and it's 3D. At best, Banjo-Tooie is a Third-Person Adventure. Period.

Banjo-Tooie is not a metroidvania, and to say it is, is quite simply, wrong.

This is the current definition for Metroid-vania on TA:
These games are inspired by classic Metroid and Castlevania games, but need not strictly adhere to the original formats. These games usually involve navigating an open or semi-open world using the skills and abilities of the character. A core component of the genre features players earning new abilities and/or items which allow them to explore previously inaccessible areas. Backtracking is also a core element of the genre (generally for progression purposes). These games can be 2D or 3D and do not need to be Platformers.
You want a proper definition of Metroid-vania? Here you go:

2D Side-Scrolling game with screen-segmented maps where additional routes and paths are unlocked with progression through the game and with the attainment of new items and abilities.

Metroid-vanias are NEVER open-world. Open-world signifies you can go anywhere, anytime (see GTA, Saints Row, for example).
Posted on 12 October 17 at 20:13
Dwaggienite has removed their disagreement about the genres applied to this game
Posted on 12 October 17 at 20:14
Dwaggienite has registered their disagreement about the genres applied to this game
Metroid
Castlevania
A Boy and his Blob
Shadow Complex
Ducktales
Cave Story
Shantae
Guacamelee
Teslagrad
Hell Yeah! Wrath of the Dead Rabbit
Wonder Boy
The Swapper
Song of the Deep
Dust: An Elysian Tail

These above are metroidvanias.

If you think Banjo-Tooie deserves to be in the same league as these, you are absolute imbecile.

Metroidvanias are typically 2D side-scrollers based on progression on a screen-by-screen map based off of the screen moving to a new 'map' room when you enter through a door splitting an area.

Banjo Tooie is not like this, and it's 3D. At best, Banjo-Tooie is a Third-Person Adventure. Period.

Banjo-Tooie is not a metroidvania, and to say it is, is quite simply, wrong.

This is the current definition for Metroid-vania on TA:
These games are inspired by classic Metroid and Castlevania games, but need not strictly adhere to the original formats. These games usually involve navigating an open or semi-open world using the skills and abilities of the character. A core component of the genre features players earning new abilities and/or items which allow them to explore previously inaccessible areas. Backtracking is also a core element of the genre (generally for progression purposes). These games can be 2D or 3D and do not need to be Platformers.
You want a proper definition of Metroid-vania? Here you go:

2D Side-Scrolling game with screen-segmented maps where additional routes and paths are unlocked with progression through the game and with the attainment of new items and abilities.

Metroid-vanias are NEVER open-world. Open-world signifies you can go anywhere, anytime (see GTA, Saints Row, for example).

Furthermore, I'd like to ask, if you think Banjo Tooie is a metroidvania... would you classify Super Mario 64 as a metroidvania? What about crash bandicoot?
Dwaggienite
1,408,271
Dwaggienite
Posted on 12 October 17 at 20:15, Edited on 12 October 17 at 20:18 by Dwaggienite
(Sorry about the double post, it doesn't allow me to edit/delete comments on this thread - can this be looked into?).

I would like to add that typically, any 3D game that has metroidvania like qualities is typically called a 3rd person adventure (like metroid prime was), because the gameplay is so different to the classic metroidvania titles.
Zonrith1
550,299
Zonrith1
Posted on 12 October 17 at 20:18, Edited on 12 October 17 at 20:19 by Zonrith1
As the definition was crafted with community input, particularly as the idea of embedding both 2D and 3D was thoroughly discussed at that time. A site wishlist thread can always be made to request a change to a genre definition (a more appropriate place than a post within a specific game that may only be monitored by a small fraction of interested parties).

Edits should be possible, just probably not regarding disagreement submissions, as those are more of a form process, but I'm just speculating. I'll point Jack to your post on the matter.
Dwaggienite
1,408,271
Dwaggienite
Posted on 12 October 17 at 20:27
I have put my suggestion here, for anyone who wishes to read: Genre Change suggestion ~ 'Metroid-vania'
Zonrith1
550,299
Zonrith1
Posted on 12 October 17 at 20:37, Edited on 13 October 17 at 07:44 by Beanpotter
x Mataeus x said:
MOD DELETED POST
I'm not sure what you expect me to say or do, hence the shrug. If you feel passion is an excuse for your tone and actions, well, nothing I can say is going to change that. Same if you feel I'm somehow power-tripping or curb-stomping rival opinions, not sure I can say or do anything differently than I have been. There are definitions, I read the arguments, then I apply the definitions. I've changed my mind when convinced I was wrong (plenty examples in prior discussions), provided lengthy explanations when requested of the decisions I did back, and lost plenty of votes amongst the other GT members. It's just a task I'm assigned to do. Again... /shrug

Though somehow I do all without resorting to name-calling and vulgarities. Perhaps I'm just less passionate? I suppose the matter is moot in a way, other than it can become challenging to recruit volunteers to serve on a team that knows it'll be routinely mocked in public forums. This was less of an issue when we hid the genre opinions from the public (Game Info only announced final determinations, not the splits internal to the team, precisely to mitigate this fallout), but it was felt the community would appreciate the more open approach. Obviously comes with something of a price.

MOD DELETED POST
Understood, but posting a complaint here is pointless. You should be submitting such issues to Rich and Jack directly. They have full power over who is on the Genre Team, what the Genre Team does, and any necessary discipline/punishments we deserve.

All I can do is pass your complaints on. And I have done so, as I have done many times in many other threads when people do not like how the Genre Team operates.

Dwaggienite said:
I have put my suggestion here, for anyone who wishes to read: Genre Change suggestion ~ 'Metroid-vania'
I will add the thread to my follow list, thank you.
Piston Toyota
586,097
Piston Toyota
Posted on 12 October 17 at 21:33, Edited on 12 October 17 at 21:47 by Piston Toyota
Good god, the amount of bile being spewed at the Genre Team here is disgusting. This is, at its absolute worst, a minor issue. Do I think the tagging decision fits? Meh, not particularly, though I see the thought process. Ultimately is it a big enough deal to warrant spewing toxic waste at a group of volunteers who generally do a good job and are very open and honest about their process? Not even remotely.

If you want a calm, logical discussion about genre decisions I’m sure there would be many here who would be happy to indulge you. It’s not what you say it’s how you say it.
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