Game Discussion: Banjo-Tooie Forum

Banjo-Tooie Multi-Genre Discussion

AuthorMessage
Zonrith1
572,786
Zonrith1
Posted on 13 October 17 at 16:04
Epsilon Theta said:
In the past, when I was amongst the team, the stance was always to have TA take its unique stance and not copy other sites. To have you quote other site's lists as evidence is, in my humble opinion, a slap in the face of what TA stood for.
His quote was not evidence of anything other than those claiming this game is never considered by anyone a Metroidvania to be incorrect. We do not use outside definitions in our own assessment, a point we repeatedly stress.
Epsilon Theta
691,397
Epsilon Theta
Posted on 13 October 17 at 16:07
Fair enough, please do use quotes to highlight who you are replying to. It made it seem like the point was brought up in response to the argumentation I presented.
Allgorhythm
256,530
Allgorhythm
Posted on 13 October 17 at 16:19, Edited on 13 October 17 at 16:22 by Allgorhythm
I don't insist the definition is perfect. I implied, and will now state explicitly, that quite a few, perhaps all of the definitions could use refinement.

TA neither tried to copy sites or take efforts to be divergent from them. It tried to establish standards that could be used to classify games into genres. What it wanted to avoid was just picking up on media hype that applied genres to games without proper foundation.

To summarize my arguments, I was making three points:

--First, whether the TA Metroidvania definition is right or wrong, Banjo-Tooie currently conforms to it.
--Second, to the suggestions that categorizing Banjo-Tooie as a Metroidvania was out in left field, I pointed out that a Metroidvania site considered the game to be a 3D Metroidvania.
--Third, that TA classifies games according to standards set by its definitions though personal views of many of the members may vary.

Regarding the last point, I have many personal feelings of my own. I did not consider Darksiders to have the 'feel' of a Metroidvania game yet I concede it conforms to the TA definition. Similarly, I do not consider Banjo-Tooie to have the 'feel' of a Metroidvania game but conceded that it conformed to the TA definition.
Dwaggienite
2,033,257
Dwaggienite
Posted on 13 October 17 at 16:54
The messages above is why I suggest in my post why the definition should be changed.
GoyetteQC
529,581
GoyetteQC
Posted on 13 October 17 at 18:41
Allgorhythm said:
TA is not taking a unique stance. Here's a Metroidvania website includes Banjo-Tooie in its list of 3D Metroidvanias:

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/metroidvania/games.htm

Insofar as the Metroidvania genre was established by 2D platformers, applying the concept to 3D games is bound to result in differing views. We recently played Darksiders in the TA Playlist. It has a very different look and feel from the Metroid and Castlevania Famicom/NES games. Yet, it is considered to be a Metroidvania. It is categorized as a Metroidvania on the TA site and is included in the Metroidvania games list I cited above.
This website is also listing Super Mario 64, Conker (lmao), every N64 & GC Zelda and Banko-Kazooie Nuts&Bolts. Do you need any more proof that this list is complete BS, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

With that sense (read here lack) of judgment, why not just add all racing games to the metroidvania genre as you usually (see what I did here) need faster cars to progress. This highway goes both ways.
[Insert signature here.]
Allgorhythm
256,530
Allgorhythm
Posted on 13 October 17 at 19:03
GoyetteQC said:
This website is also listing Super Mario 64, Conker (lmao), every N64 & GC Zelda and Banko-Kazooie Nuts&Bolts. Do you need any more proof that this list is complete BS, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

With that sense (read here lack) of judgment, why not just add all racing games to the metroidvania genre as you usually (see what I did here) need faster cars to progress. This highway goes both ways.
I wasn't suggesting that we go by the website. I was just showing that TA was not doing something diametrically opposed to what the Metroidvania community was saying.
GoyetteQC
529,581
GoyetteQC
Posted on 13 October 17 at 19:22
What metroidvania community though? It's not because some lunatic is listing Banjo-Tooie as a metroidvania somewhere else that it means it's any true. If another website listed Gears of Wars as a metroidvania, would you consider adding it to the genre here too?

Either way, the definition for metroidvania should really be reconsidered, or have some exceptions at the very least. Listing Banjo-Tooie as a metroidvania is laughable. Right now I feel like some people are abusing the vague description of the genre to add games to benefit themselves instead of just classing games where they belong.
[Insert signature here.]
Allgorhythm
256,530
Allgorhythm
Posted on 13 October 17 at 19:35
Couldn't agree more that our definitions need a lot of refining. Bear in mind that there was a lot of TA community discussion wrt Metrodvania so it's not as if the definition were pulled out of a hat. On the other hand, there was not unanimous consensus either so it's not surprising that people have differing views on how the definition is being applied. Feel free to draft an update to the definition. Stand by, though, because a lot of people will throw figurative tomatoes at that proposed definition.

It's unfair to call someone who has devoted a lot of time and energy to his endeavor a lunatic just because you don't agree with him on every point. I, myself, don't agree with him on every point. As I said, I merely cited an example to show that TA was not alone in its classification. I did not imply that it is an authoritative source nor do I consider it to be one. However, it's illustrative of the thinking of some Metroidvania aficionados.
x Mataeus x
861,769
x Mataeus x
Posted on 13 October 17 at 21:48
The only 3D Metroidvanias I can think of off the top of my head, are Shadowman and ReCore.
Allgorhythm
256,530
Allgorhythm
Posted on 14 October 17 at 00:55
x Mataeus x said:
The only 3D Metroidvanias I can think of off the top of my head, are Shadowman and ReCore.
On the site, we have a dozen or so Batman: Arkham games and half a dozen or so Darksiders games that are classified as Metroidvania.
misfit119
861,193
misfit119
Posted on 14 October 17 at 03:59, Edited on 14 October 17 at 04:00 by misfit119
Epsilon Theta said:
I tend to be analytical about all things genre. I have no real personal stake in this, except to point out that the definition is flawed and that it seems like feelings, especially those of inclusion (probably out of love for the genre itself), have played a rather large role in coining the definition.
The definition was crafted with a crap ton of input from the community. The language was approved of by the people in the thread. This is one of those situations where some people find no, or few, problems with a thing and then someone else sees a problem and then blows it out of proportion. Many genre definitions need to be reworked so that the games fit into them better. This has been talked about by the team repeatedly. It simply hasn't been acted upon yet since we're waiting for a few things.

GoyetteQC said:
What metroidvania community though? It's not because some lunatic is listing Banjo-Tooie as a metroidvania somewhere else that it means it's any true. If another website listed Gears of Wars as a metroidvania, would you consider adding it to the genre here too?
We don't care what other sites list games genres as nor do we care what their definitions of genres are. However I'll make this simple:

If you go to any number of message boards, from GameFAQs to Reddit, and ask for good Metroidvania games there will always be an argument as to what counts. I've seen Banjo 1 and 2 brought up. I've seen the Arkham Asylum games. I've seen Zelda and Darksiders. I've seen God of War. I've seen Dark Souls. People have whinged and moaned that only 2D counts and even the 2.5D games are out, thus ruling out something like Pharaonic. Metroid Prime counts. No it doesn't because it's not 2D. Yes it does because it's the exact same Metroid game, just in 3D.

What this means is that what the term means to one person doesn't seem to apply broadly. That's why you have this thread getting so cringe worthy with people who "know" what a Metroidvania is and isn't. It's just not clear even though people love to insist that it is.

The language needs some cleaning up, I agree, but only once we figure out what the sites stance on the genre will be going forward. Hopefully the thread about it helps.
Looking to boost any MP achievements I don't have for any game I own.
Epsilon Theta
691,397
Epsilon Theta
Posted on 14 October 17 at 09:33
Allgorhythm said:
[...]
--First, whether the TA Metroidvania definition is right or wrong, Banjo-Tooie currently conforms to it.
So do all other games as the definition leaves the door wide open. Hence, the argument carries zero weight!
Allgorhythm said:
--Second, to the suggestions that categorizing Banjo-Tooie as a Metroidvania was out in left field, I pointed out that a Metroidvania site considered the game to be a 3D Metroidvania.
Which is irrelevant to the validity of the genre attribution on TA as you yourself pointed out.
Allgorhythm said:
--Third, that TA classifies games according to standards set by its definitions though personal views of many of the members may vary.
Agreed but this isn't an argument in favour of the attribution.

While I cherish you sharing your thoughts, we should remain on point. None of these points gives credence to the current genre attribution.

misfit119 said:
What this means is that what the term means to one person doesn't seem to apply broadly. That's why you have this thread getting so cringe worthy with people who "know" what a Metroidvania is and isn't. It's just not clear even though people love to insist that it is.
This is why, back in the day, the team spent hundreds of hours on genre definitions. I can't remember how many of the current definitions I rewrote time and time again to make sure there was little to no room for interpretation and that the definition, even if some didn't agree with the genre placement, could stand firm and not be argued about.
This is not the case with this definition which, as I pointed out, includes some major flaws that give more credence to voices of contempt. Pointing at the definition shouldn't raise more questions, it should quell most people's temper.
x Mataeus x
861,769
x Mataeus x
Posted on 14 October 17 at 20:51
I've posted my thoughts on the definition in the relevant thread - see what you think. What Awoo states afterwards about the "feel" is what I was trying, unsuccessfully, to get across with the "common sense" standpoint.

Maybe we should be going in the opposite direction? Maybe genres should be lessened to the classics: 2D platformer, 3D platformer, Shooter, RPG, Sandbox etc, like back in the day :-)

After all, the hack n slash genre is totally nuts :)
Information Posted on 15 October 17 at 04:42
Jakez123 has registered their disagreement about the genres applied to this game
Here's my 2 cents on the situation, since the current TA definition is:

"There are many areas and challenges in the early levels that can only be accessed with powers/moves you get in the later worlds, thus needing a lot of backtracking. There are also puzzles that need to be started in one world and finished in another, adding to the backtracking needed."


Then technically wouldn't most JRPGs also fall under the "Metroidvania", if we go by this definition, which we are in the case of Banjo-Tooie, many JRPGs also follow this definition. For example, in Star Ocean: The last Hope, some areas/bosses/chests located in earlier dungeons cannot be obtained until you get abilities later on in the game which allow you to break seals to open the path ahead. Puzzles are littered throughout the worlds in Star Ocean, often requiring you to go to one planet to get an item, only to then backtrack a few planets earlier to continue with the quest.

Some early super bosses are also not even beatable until you come back with stronger weapons. These themes are also seen in other JRPGs such as Tales of Vesperia and Blue Dragon, they all require you to obtain new abilities to solve earlier puzzles, backtrack to open seals to get items, backtrack to beat enemies you could not normally face. Furthermore, levels and dungeons are always segmented and separated from each other, this is evident in JRPGs like Final fantasy 13-2, which by the way, also has these Metroidvania themes. Some of the collectibles you need to collect (I believe they are fragments) are not obtainable until you get new time powers as you progress through the game, you then have to go back to the earlier time periods to then obtain the fragments which were not obtainable before hand.

If Banjo Tooie is considered a Metroidvania based on TAs definition, then JRPGS definitely fall under this category also, if anyone here has played Star Ocean, FF 13-2. Tales of vesperia or Blue Dragon I'm sure you can vouch for credibility into my statement.

I was wondering what the TA genre team thinks of this?
Jakez123
930,585
Jakez123
Posted on 15 October 17 at 04:45
And by the way when I refer to "can;t obtain fragments beforehand", it's exactly Identical to Banjo-Tooie, in which you cannot obtain some jiggies due to not having the proper move or ability, forcing you to move a world or 2 ahead until you learn the move. FF 13-2 has the exact same set up, you can see the fragment, it shows up on the map, but you simply can;t obtain it since you don;t have the correct ability. and thus you must progress, only to backtack later on, I would classify that as a metroidvania theme on that technicality.
ChinDocta
1,184,490
ChinDocta
Posted on 15 October 17 at 04:53, Edited on 15 October 17 at 04:55 by ChinDocta
Jakez123 said:
And by the way when I refer to "can;t obtain fragments beforehand", it's exactly Identical to Banjo-Tooie, in which you cannot obtain some jiggies due to not having the proper move or ability, forcing you to move a world or 2 ahead until you learn the move. FF 13-2 has the exact same set up, you can see the fragment, it shows up on the map, but you simply can;t obtain it since you don;t have the correct ability. and thus you must progress, only to backtack later on, I would classify that as a metroidvania theme on that technicality.
If you're genuinely suggesting the metroidvania tag be added to those games then raise a disagreement on the games themselves, this is not the place for it.

If you're just talking about the current definition and how broad it is that it could theoretically contain these games, still not the place for it. Better off putting it in this thread:Genre Change suggestion ~ 'Metroid-vania'

This is, and should be, a place only for discussing genre application on Banjo Tooie.
misfit119
861,193
misfit119
Posted on 15 October 17 at 06:14, Edited on 15 October 17 at 06:19 by misfit119
Epsilon Theta said:
This is why, back in the day, the team spent hundreds of hours on genre definitions. I can't remember how many of the current definitions I rewrote time and time again to make sure there was little to no room for interpretation and that the definition, even if some didn't agree with the genre placement, could stand firm and not be argued about.
No offense but I've never seen that of many of the definitions. As a regular site member at the time it was simply out of our hands to do anything about it before genre votes became a thing. For example stuff like Hack & Slash, Beat 'em Up and a few others that I can't remember off the top of my head always struck me as inviting argument due to broad terms and similarities.

Perhaps the mistake here was involving the community in the situation. Because now you have a community that helped shape the definition and then the community crying foul. Even though some of those people posted in that thread.

Jakez123 said:
I would classify that as a metroidvania theme on that technicality.
For a game to be suitable for a genre it would have to meet all of the criteria and not just have a similar theme or ideas. It's not about getting collectibles or having to backtrack to do so. It's about getting abilities that fundamentally change how you play the game. Some had intimated that this was the case with the Banjo series and it made its way in due to that. If that's wrong, that's fine and it can be fixed. But it's not just about going back for items you missed, it's about fundamentally changing how a game is played even if in small ways.

Please do not create a disagreement to ask a question of the team though. Simply ask in the thread and we will answer it.
Looking to boost any MP achievements I don't have for any game I own.
Epsilon Theta
691,397
Epsilon Theta
Posted on 15 October 17 at 08:00
misfit119 said:
[...]For example stuff like Hack & Slash, Beat 'em Up and a few others that I can't remember off the top of my head always struck me as inviting argument due to broad terms and similarities.
Yet they didn't and most of the definitions are still in use today. Arguments from the community were always weighed and dealt with accordingly. The formal nature of many definitions backed up the teams arguments and left little room for interpretation once the definition was applied in the context. Maybe the problem is not having team members around that know the definitions as well as they should.

misfit119 said:
Perhaps the mistake here was involving the community in the situation.
Definitely!
Zonrith1
572,786
Zonrith1
Posted on 15 October 17 at 13:20
Epsilon Theta said:
misfit119 said:
Perhaps the mistake here was involving the community in the situation.
Definitely!
That's on me; I decided to involve a public discussion in crafting that language, same as with Roguelite; maybe it did (directly or indirectly) lead to this latest fallout. Still, I do stand by the decision. It was an entirely new genre for this site, and people outside of the Genre Team are passionate. If I were passionate and not on GT, would I have appreciated being solicited for input on a new genre addition?

My answer was "yes", so my decision was what it was. I don't really regret it, even if I've had to spend hours dealing with the fallout of this thread rather than the rest of the GT work I should have accomplished this week. Maybe after another hour of this my tune will change, however. wink
Allgorhythm
256,530
Allgorhythm
Posted on 15 October 17 at 14:15
TrueAchievement said:
Jakez123 has registered their disagreement about the genres applied to this game
Then technically wouldn't most JRPGs also fall under the "Metroidvania"
You'll note that we do not have a JRPG genre & for good reason. Any discord over the Metroidvania definition would pale in comparison to the fallout of a JRPG definition.

To address your point. In my opinion, games like Star Ocean: The Last Hope, Tales of Vesperia, Final Fantasy XIII-2, etc. may conform to the TA Metroidvania definition. Nevertheless, their dominant stylistic criteria are those of the RPG genre so they are classified as RPGs.

Personally, I think when a game is classified according to genre XYZ that a people playing the game should have the feeling that they are playing a game of the RPG genre. When you play Tales of Vesperia, for example, no matter how conforming it is to the TA Metroidvania definition, you do not get the feeling that you are playing a Metroidvania. You get the feeling that you are playing an RPG.

To give an analogy in theatre, Romeo and Juliet has many comedic elements in it. Shakespeare, in fact, structured it in the same manner in which he structured his comedies. Nevertheless, Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy because the tragic stylistic criteria so overwhelm the comedic stylistic criteria.

This rationale applies to all genres and not just Metroidvania. A game must not only conform to the TA definition of genre XYZ to be classified as a game in genre XYZ but also the XYZ stylistic criteria must not be overwhelmed by the stylistic criteria of another genre.
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