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  • misfit119misfit1191,041,985
    Posted on 21 August 17 at 05:15, Edited on 21 August 17 at 05:15 by misfit119
    Cower Before me said:
    The multiplayer was the best part though....
    I would actually say the best parts are the rich world building and the challenging but not obnoxious fights it lays out before you. As someone who loathes PvP unless it's something fun going on between friends I couldn't give a lick less about it especially when it's as janky and unreliable as DS1 could be.

    Cower Before me said:
    If you don't regain your humanity you can't be invaded. And only under specific conditions or areas can you be invaded.
    This isn't much of a solution since you then can't Kindle bonfires without being human. I can't even imagine doing some of the areas without kindling the at least a few of them, notably Anor Londo for the first time and the Duke's Archives.
    Looking to boost any MP achievements I don't have for any game I own.
  • Legohead 1977Legohead 19771,552,486
    Posted on 21 August 17 at 08:02
    misfit119 said:
    Cower Before me said:
    The multiplayer was the best part though....
    I would actually say the best parts are the rich world building and the challenging but not obnoxious fights it lays out before you. As someone who loathes PvP unless it's something fun going on between friends I couldn't give a lick less about it especially when it's as janky and unreliable as DS1 could be.

    Cower Before me said:
    If you don't regain your humanity you can't be invaded. And only under specific conditions or areas can you be invaded.
    This isn't much of a solution since you then can't Kindle bonfires without being human. I can't even imagine doing some of the areas without kindling the at least a few of them, notably Anor Londo for the first time and the Duke's Archives.
    That really infuriated me, it seemed for a while that every time I became human, someone invaded...I shall definitely try the party trick if it wins. If you party up with others can you all get achievements?
    Legohead 1977
  • Posted on 21 August 17 at 09:05
    Legohead 1977 said:
    misfit119 said:
    Cower Before me said:
    The multiplayer was the best part though....
    I would actually say the best parts are the rich world building and the challenging but not obnoxious fights it lays out before you. As someone who loathes PvP unless it's something fun going on between friends I couldn't give a lick less about it especially when it's as janky and unreliable as DS1 could be.

    Cower Before me said:
    If you don't regain your humanity you can't be invaded. And only under specific conditions or areas can you be invaded.
    This isn't much of a solution since you then can't Kindle bonfires without being human. I can't even imagine doing some of the areas without kindling the at least a few of them, notably Anor Londo for the first time and the Duke's Archives.
    That really infuriated me, it seemed for a while that every time I became human, someone invaded...I shall definitely try the party trick if it wins. If you party up with others can you all get achievements?
    Only the host I believe.
  • Legohead 1977Legohead 19771,552,486
    Posted on 21 August 17 at 09:44
    One of my most hated shortcomings for any game, co-op without progression for all.

    This is why I say this game could be great, but just falls flat on a couple of things that are really important to me personally. Poor checkpoint positioning, forced replays, the henchman system instead of co-op are all pretty big flaws for me, the rest of it must be pretty good because I should hate it based on these alone! laugh
    Legohead 1977
  • OldMateClownOldMateClown882,662
    Posted on 21 August 17 at 14:09
    I dont understand what you're complaining about. The checkpoint system is fine, the game isn't meant to be a walk in the park so I dont really know what else you expected. There are no forced replays, for achievements yes but this game was designed to be played through over and over again anyway.

    As for co-op you or your partner get summoned to the other persons world, you cannot take items or interact with anything important you can only help to fight so of course progression isnt shared, again the gane isnt meant to be a walk in the park, the fact there is co-op at all for bosses is a gift.
  • Legohead 1977Legohead 19771,552,486
    Posted on 21 August 17 at 14:42, Edited on 21 August 17 at 14:58 by Legohead 1977
    ClownTastic said:
    I dont understand what you're complaining about. The checkpoint system is fine, the game isn't meant to be a walk in the park so I dont really know what else you expected. There are no forced replays, for achievements yes but this game was designed to be played through over and over again anyway.

    As for co-op you or your partner get summoned to the other persons world, you cannot take items or interact with anything important you can only help to fight so of course progression isnt shared, again the gane isnt meant to be a walk in the park, the fact there is co-op at all for bosses is a gift.
    I am complaining because they are things I don't like, it has nothing to do with wanting the game to be easier, just more enjoyable. I understand that fans will try to defend the game, but I just feel that anyone who criticises this particular game is always told it's because the game is so hard so you must be a noob if you don't like it. I actually like the game, but I would change it if I could.

    I will concede that it has been a while since I played it so my memory of the first point may be a little hazy, but as an example, I had to fight one dragon a number of times, which is fine, I don't mind hard games and the bosses were nice and hard, but in a game designed to be hard where I am expected to die, why make me navigate a tricky area followed by a fight against some irritatingly tiresome clams, then I get to try the boss again. As I said earlier, maybe hard nowadays just means long distances between checkpoints, but I see the boss fight as hard, the checkpoint system is a walk in the park, a very tiresome and tedious park.

    We are on an achievement site, and I have never seen the need for any repeated playthroughs of any games, it's just unnecessary, not hard.

    Again I think I have been misunderstood, I don't want co-op to make things easier, just have two bosses for all I care, I am a social person and co-op trumps solo every time for me. As I said above, that's not co-op, it's the henchman system. Either have it or don't.

    I love Red Dead, but I understand there are those that don't, I don't tell them they are obviously bad at video games if they don't like it, it's just personal opinion.

    I apologise for ranting, but if I hated games that were outside my skill level I wouldn't have much to play, and I certainly wouldn't have any Rock Band titles!
    Legohead 1977
  • misfit119misfit1191,041,985
    Posted on 21 August 17 at 19:35
    Legohead 1977 said:
    That really infuriated me, it seemed for a while that every time I became human, someone invaded...I shall definitely try the party trick if it wins. If you party up with others can you all get achievements?
    No, you can't party up with others like that. If you start up an Xbox Live party and stay in it then you cannot be invaded but you also cannot do the online co-op. It's basically allowing you to see blood stains and messages without being invaded. So if you decide you need help with a boss you simply log out of the game right where you're standing (enemies won't respawn and you stay right there), leave the party, restart the game and then check for summon signs but also have the possibility of invasion. There's no way for everyone to get the achievements since if you join someones game you're booted after enough time passes or a boss is defeated. So there'd be no way to play through the whole game co-op for example.

    Legohead 1977 said:
    I am complaining because they are things I don't like, it has nothing to do with wanting the game to be easier, just more enjoyable. I understand that fans will try to defend the game, but I just feel that anyone who criticises this particular game is always told it's because the game is so hard so you must be a noob if you don't like it. I actually like the game, but I would change it if I could.
    The reason most people defend it so aggressively is because part of the problem with gamers these days is that if a game is hard they automatically decry is as unfair. Meanwhile DS is almost always pretty far from unfair in its handling of most issues. The problem thus becomes a matter of people saying they don't want the game to be easier, just more enjoyable but those "More enjoyable" definitions usually make the game easier. I've heard people talk about stuff like bosses shouldn't heal when you die or how upgrading equipment should be cheaper. Meanwhile those run against the very concept of the game, where you have to struggle for your upgrades and boss wins. Otherwise you'd just upgrade the first weapon you found and eventually wear down every boss with it.

    That said, there are a few legitimate gripes and the bonfire issue is a trickier one.

    Legohead 1977 said:
    I will concede that it has been a while since I played it so my memory of the first point may be a little hazy, but as an example, I had to fight one dragon a number of times!
    There are only two points in Dark Souls where the bonfires are what one could really call an "unreasonable" distance from each other. Both of those are late game areas that the devs have admitted were somewhat poorly tested.

    The first of these is the section it sounds like you're describing - the Duke's Archives to Crystal Caves connection. Honestly that are is pure, unadulturated bull and deserves no defense. You have to get past a bunch of hard to fight golems, get into a cave, fight more golems on narrow platforms, navigate a number of invisible pathways, deal with the clams and then you can fight the boss. It's long, it's tedious and more importantly it's just annoying. It really drags down a cool boss fight by making it such a chore to get to. If there was a bonfire near the part way through the caves, it'd make the thing so much less annoying.

    The second area is the Lost Izalith section. The Bed of Chaos fight most importantly. Unless you know the cheesy tricks to deal with that boss, it's just a nightmare. Then if you don't know about the stupid hidden bonfire you have to sprint through the lava every time you want to fight the boss, dodging the enemies after said lava and then past an enemy capable of a near one shot kill to reach the boss. It's a sheer dick move on their part to hide that bonfire since, even if you use the exploit, it's very easy to die dozens of times to the final part of that fight.

    Beyond those two areas most of the rest of the game is perfectly reasonable. You'd have to fight me to convince me that most of the bonfires are problematic. laugh Most of the time it's really just a matter of figuring out how to open a short cut to make it through. Like the Catacombs for example - long and arduous unless you know how to take a shortcut through it. Luckily the game provides clues to the player.

    Legohead 1977 said:
    Again I think I have been misunderstood, I don't want co-op to make things easier, just have two bosses for all I care, I am a social person and co-op trumps solo every time for me. As I said above, that's not co-op, it's the henchman system. Either have it or don't.
    Well that's where you're thinking of this the wrong way. Dark Souls isn't a co-op game. Not really. It's a single player game where you can bring in help when you need it. I know some people managed to play co-op through it by setting up dedicated meeting places and helping each other through it. But the entire conceit of the game, that you're in your own world and are trying to perform a very personal goal, just doesn't allow it to be a full co-op game. It's easier to do some janky co-op type setups in DS2 but the rest remains.
    Looking to boost any MP achievements I don't have for any game I own.
  • LuckyKantLuckyKant741,679
    Posted on 21 August 17 at 20:06
    If you want help from a particular friend, use private chat rather than party. Game won't kick you.
  • Legohead 1977Legohead 19771,552,486
    Posted on 22 August 17 at 08:15, Edited on 22 August 17 at 08:21 by Legohead 1977
    misfit119 said:
    The reason most people defend it so aggressively is because part of the problem with gamers these days is that if a game is hard they automatically decry is as unfair.

    Beyond those two areas most of the rest of the game is perfectly reasonable. You'd have to fight me to convince me that most of the bonfires are problematic. laugh Most of the time it's really just a matter of figuring out how to open a short cut to make it through. Like the Catacombs for example - long and arduous unless you know how to take a shortcut through it. Luckily the game provides clues to the player.

    Well that's where you're thinking of this the wrong way. Dark Souls isn't a co-op game. Not really. It's a single player game where you can bring in help when you need it. I know some people managed to play co-op through it by setting up dedicated meeting places and helping each other through it. But the entire conceit of the game, that you're in your own world and are trying to perform a very personal goal, just doesn't allow it to be a full co-op game. It's easier to do some janky co-op type setups in DS2 but the rest remains.
    Thanks, it's nice to have someone actually address my points. I agree, a lot of people do want things to be easier, but sometimes it really is just preference. I love a challenge, I really do, maybe not FE Frog on Zuma! laugh

    I told you my recollection may have been hazy, that first area you describe is exactly the moment I remember...such a long journey, you obviously know the game a lot better so I will change my future comments to reflect just that particular stretch. I don't remember the second area being anywhere near as irritating, but I'm pretty sure I cheesed the boss!

    I know I'm thinking of the game the wrong way, but I still wish most of my favourite games were co-op, RDR, GTAV to name two. I just think that if you can't get progression or achievements for all then it should be called the henchman system, not co-op. This is not a gripe specific to this game. Most Lego games are the same.

    I know you didn't address it, but I will stick with my other point too, that is also an industry wide gripe. I know the industry does not have to cater to people interested in achievements, but it doesn't stop me as a gamer who likes to complete all achievements from complaining when certain achievements effectively taint the overall experience. Having to replay a game is one of these instances where I regret wanting all achievements, it should be my choice, because I enjoy the game so much.

    I don't really see Dark Souls as hard though, it is as challenging as it should be. You have also gone a long way in defending the game as now I only have one, much more focused complaint, and two further industry wide issues.
    Legohead 1977
  • misfit119misfit1191,041,985
    Posted on 22 August 17 at 10:22
    Legohead 1977 said:
    I told you my recollection may have been hazy, that first area you describe is exactly the moment I remember...such a long journey, you obviously know the game a lot better so I will change my future comments to reflect just that particular stretch. I don't remember the second area being anywhere near as irritating, but I'm pretty sure I cheesed the boss!
    What's annoying is that Seath the Scaleless is a pretty easy boss when you know how to fight him. But even though I can beat him at level 1 with no problem at this point I still die getting to him. It's stupid too since I know the invisible platforms like the back of my hand. You think that'd stop it but, nope. I still die constantly due to a misstep. I recorded an Xbox game clip showing a friend how I was farming Blue Titanite in the Crystal Caverns and I did it perfectly in that run while going backwards. The next three runs I died in the the dumbest ways possible.

    The second area is only really bad if you don't know about the second bonfire. If you do it's a pretty short run back to the boss. But if you go in blind and don't know what's going to happen then you have a hell of a time getting back to the boss. Really draws it out.

    Legohead 1977 said:
    I know I'm thinking of the game the wrong way, but I still wish most of my favourite games were co-op, RDR, GTAV to name two. I just think that if you can't get progression or achievements for all then it should be called the henchman system, not co-op. This is not a gripe specific to this game. Most Lego games are the same.
    I understand your complaints. I'm actually very much the same way as you. I prefer games to be co-op so I can play them with the fiancee. Even if it's kind of tacked on we can enjoy ourselves. I don't even really mind when the game data is only saved to one account so all progress is tied to it, I just really loathe when you can't unlock achievements for the second player. It's no fun seeing me pop achievements while she gets nothing. It's why we don't play any LEGO games together after getting burned with the first Star Wars game. I just really see the multiplayer of Dark Souls as a panic button more than an actual feature.

    Legohead 1977 said:
    I know you didn't address it, but I will stick with my other point too, that is also an industry wide gripe. I know the industry does not have to cater to people interested in achievements, but it doesn't stop me as a gamer who likes to complete all achievements from complaining when certain achievements effectively taint the overall experience. Having to replay a game is one of these instances where I regret wanting all achievements, it should be my choice, because I enjoy the game so much.
    I didn't reply to it because I'm of two minds on the issue. Firstly you can complain all you like. I do it plenty as anyone who sees my posts can attest to. laugh Secondly I don't mind the concept of having to replay games multiple times if there's some actual incentive to do so. Dark Souls didn't bother me since the NG+ makes the game a little harder, gives me more chances to power up and lets me see a second ending. Multiple endings add value to a forced replay. Making me play on multiple difficulties though for no purpose other than padding? Go right to hell.

    My main gripe nowadays is video games with craptons of collectibles. The bad ones will do it without a map just to really twist the knife. It's why my completion of AssCreed games is so abysmal. I just cannot be bothered most of the time. I only ever 100% the first game just to prove to myself that I could.

    Legohead 1977 said:
    I don't really see Dark Souls as hard though, it is as challenging as it should be. You have also gone a long way in defending the game as now I only have one, much more focused complaint, and two further industry wide issues.
    I routinely tell people it's actually a relatively easy game once you learn the patterns and placement of things. It's only really hard if you get impatient. As to your other issues, I'm hoping we see some changes but it feels unlikely. Achievements have inspired developers to pad their games every way possible and it's getting really, really exhausting.
    Looking to boost any MP achievements I don't have for any game I own.
  • Legohead 1977Legohead 19771,552,486
    Posted on 22 August 17 at 10:58
    misfit119 said:
    Achievements have inspired developers to pad their games every way possible and it's getting really, really exhausting.
    Another example of something beautiful being misused, sometimes it does really bother me. I can see your point about Dark Souls because you like it and it does add a bit to the experience, but for me one playthrough is sort of enough. Then you add the excessive leveling required for games (GoW, GTA4, GTA5), terrible multiplayer (RE5), difficulties without stacking (Zheros), and as you say collectibles without a map, or clues, or even a by area breakdown (Crackdown, AC1) and I have wasted so much time...time where I could have replayed some of my favourites.
    Legohead 1977
  • PurdsPurds1,192,373
    Posted on 22 August 17 at 14:41, Edited on 22 August 17 at 14:50 by Purds
    misfit119 said:
    Cower Before me said:
    The multiplayer was the best part though....
    I would actually say the best parts are the rich world building and the challenging but not obnoxious fights it lays out before you. As someone who loathes PvP unless it's something fun going on between friends I couldn't give a lick less about it especially when it's as janky and unreliable as DS1 could be.

    Cower Before me said:
    If you don't regain your humanity you can't be invaded. And only under specific conditions or areas can you be invaded.
    This isn't much of a solution since you then can't Kindle bonfires without being human. I can't even imagine doing some of the areas without kindling the at least a few of them, notably Anor Londo for the first time and the Duke's Archives.
    Ok so if you get stuck or get to a bonfire you know will be difficult regain humanity and kindle it, if you die dont regain humanity. Or stay human and just play through the area with other people from the event.

    Last but not least people could just git gud.http://i.imgur.com/kpBYkT1.jpg
  • ArcheimArcheim401,995
    Posted on 22 August 17 at 16:14
    Dark Souls series (notably DS 1) made me do something i never really did in video games.

    I walked EVERYWHERE... with my SHIELD raised. Otherwise something was going to surprise me, and i was going to die. Early on... with the combination of a spear thrust while holding up my shield... that went well.
  • vSullyvSully1,134,660
  • AllgorhythmAllgorhythm512,657
  • misfit119misfit1191,041,985
    Posted on 22 August 17 at 21:11
    Legohead 1977 said:
    Another example of something beautiful being misused, sometimes it does really bother me. -snip- and I have wasted so much time...time where I could have replayed some of my favourites.
    Yep. It's one of the things that's really killing the gaming industry for me. I'd rather a game be a ten hour experience than a thirty hour experience thanks solely to collectibles and ungodly MP level grinding. It's why lately the only long games I've been playing are either RPG's, where I can get everything done at my own pace, or games where I don't care if I get all of the achievements, like Doom.

    Cower Before me said:
    Ok so if you get stuck or get to a bonfire you know will be difficult regain humanity and kindle it, if you die dont regain humanity. Or stay human and just play through the area with other people from the event.
    Or I could, ya know, use the party trick and stay human as long as possible without dying. Then I can kindle bonfires to my hearts content. Yay, problem solving!

    Cower Before me said:
    Last but not least people could just git gud.http://i.imgur.com/kpBYkT1.jpg
    True recording of a Dark Souls PvP battle: http://imgur.com/ddSLbKy

    vSully said:
    I really hope Dark Souls wins:

    http://i.imgur.com/uozJw1V.gifv
    Dear god I love that video. clap
    Looking to boost any MP achievements I don't have for any game I own.
  • Posted on 23 August 17 at 00:25
    And how is the voting done
  • ChewieOnIceChewieOnIce1,286,187
  • GRAND NOBLEGRAND NOBLE424,973
  • Cylon 118Cylon 118476,816
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