Cuphead Multi-Genre Discussion

SpiralGamerpro said:Exactly this.

I'm not good at the whole genre thing but (& I know I might be wrong but) isn't the point with multiple genres the fact that you can then easily find anything that is similar to a certain genre? Anywhooo I've voted the 3 first mentioned though from reading this thread I get that, that might be wrong

SpiralGamerpro said:The main reason I would be hesitant about this is that not every run 'n gun has platformer elements. This has become the case in more recent years but I'd be reluctant to make it a blanket requirement. In most cases to qualify for a genre a substantial portion of the game needs to have platforming as a core element. That means more than jumping around and that the stages themselves have to be a danger.

It's especially confusing since, realistically, shoot 'em up's gave birth to run 'n guns. So there's a whole trickle down thing going on there. One could honestly make the argument that run 'n gun as a genre is nothing more than a shoot 'em up with the ability to jump.

misfit119 said:I disagree completely with bolded line. One of the earlier run n guns was probably Mega Man/Rock Man, or at least one that most people think of as an example, and I don't think many would dispute Mega Man is much more platformer than shoot 'em up mechanic wise.

Contra & Metal Slug fall pretty close to the middle of the two genres though. Iconic run n guns - definitive of the genre.

But it's true, there are some run n guns, especially recently, that are very light on the platforming - that GWG Shoot Many Robots comes to mind AFAIK - and feel at least a little bit more like a shoot 'em up. Even then IMO, most of the (esp. more advanced mechanics) of shoot 'em ups/twin sticks are missing.

iMaginaryy said:Well more my point, although I could have been clearer, is that shoot 'em up's go back quite a ways. Stuff like Ikari Warriors and its ilk were all very simplistic top down shooters. None of the more unique stuff you'd see in things like R-Type or others like bullet hell games. It was just run from point A to point B while shooting stuff. Then you have games like Adventures of Dino Riki that were shoot 'em up's but had platforming in them that were, as far as I remember, the hardest parts of that game.

It's all very mixed up together.

iMaginaryy said:Funny thing about that. Until coming to TA and getting into genre discussions I never considered Mega Man anything but a platformer. I never knew anyone really thought of it as anything beyond that. Beyond the bosses I always found in these games that the stages were more of a threat than anything else. Regular enemies are little more than nuisances.

iMaginaryy said:I think, perhaps, that there's a bit of meshing going on here. When people say shoot 'em up they can be talking about anything from ultra-simplistic stuff like Aegis Wing, Galaga or Geometry Wars. Then you've got stuff like Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun that are far more complicated to play thanks to being a sub-genre.

Really though, this isn't me saying that one should be a sub-genre of another. It was more me saying why they shouldn't. We should instead just focus on using multi-genres to make things more accurate.

So just add Platformer to the 90% of Run-n-Guns that have significant platforming elements then

Lot of stuff, so spoilers.

iMaginaryy said:Stuff like Ikari Warriors or the shooter stages are top down shooters with people running around taking out enemies. They were pretty innovative for their time. Ikari Warriors especially was one of the first games to use the twin stick shooter concept. But many people would see the on foot combat, even if it is top down, and label it a run 'n gun

iMaginaryy said:That's because most of the early games predate the split between SHMUP and RnG. Previously all games were SHMUPS and then people started to create sub-genres. Thus something like Dino Riki, which is without a doubt a SHMUP, happens to have the developers try something creative by throwing in platforming. Then people start trying to redefine it based on personal interpretation of the genres. It gets ugly is my point.

I clearly don't need to reiterate that, you made such clear, but it's a bit of a sore point for me.

iMaginaryy said:I agree. It's a difficult situation and we're going to have to do the best we can with it. I, personally, like to see games kept from dealing with parent genres where possible if the parent might change the requirements of games. I'm not too fond of that concept so I like to keep it separated and then unite them via multi-genre.

That said there's absolutely no harm in debating these topics. Sometimes it'll get people to notice that changes need to happen to definitions or that sub-genres may need to be split off on their own. So long as conversation continues we can hopefully sort this stuff out better and better.

SpiralGamerpro said:Indeed this is the basic solution. Then you let the rest do their thing and see how the community votes or disputes it. Seems to be the best system.

Mm, I don't mean things like Crimsonland or what it sounds like Ikari Warriors is as run n gun - those are clearly schmups if it's top down and just moving an avatar around the screen like geometry wars or whatever - I was talking about things like Contra, where it's side scrolling and you are jumping/climbing and glued to the ground like a platformer. So I don't mean just running on foot - clearly it's not that simple - it's the mechanics: running on foot like Crimsonland is schmup-like while running on foot in Contra is RnG/platformer like. I.e. if it's like a platformer, it's probably not a schmup.

Clearly if you take a schmup, or any genre, and start adding elements from another genre, like platformer, you're going to get something new - and if it's enough elements create a new genre or subgenre. Although, yes, it is quite complicated between the three.

For some reason Dino Riki's wiki page lists it as a third person shooter
but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5eURQyEEQM is indeed schmup-like from what I see.

misfit119 said:The definition on the site says run n gun genre incorporates platforming elements, so if you don't agree you'll have to take it out on the definition..

I8ITackyticsI8I said:Right but there's a difference between platforming elements and a platformer. Platforming elements exist in many games from many genres. Dishonored has it, Assassin's Creed has it and many FPS's have it. But those aren't usually enough to actually be a platformer all on their own. Platformer games generally have the environment itself be a constant threat. So if you had a run 'n gun game with no threat to the platforming, that'd be okay right now. It wouldn't be if we made run 'n gun a platformer sub-genre since it would then have to meet that genre's definition as well.

Would it help if I compiled a list of all the Run n Guns that deserve the Platformer tag?

EverStoned77 said:This is why RnG should stay.

Awoo has registered their disagreement about the genres applied to this game

And just to be clear, when I say shmuping, I mean the ones that play like your typical vertical scrolling "flying" shmup. There are plenty of these stages in the game.

A few things here:

1) The genre change request is dismissed, because there is currently nothing to change. Due to other matters consuming too much time last week, I failed to get through all the closed genre votes. Platformer + Run & Gun + Shoot 'em up had the vast quantities of community votes, and thus have been implemented. Since the change request matches the vote, there's now nothing to change.

2) Regarding Run & Gun versus Platformer, bear in mind the "platforming elements" mentioned in R&G does not specifically mean the Platformer definition's elements (hence the lower-case use of the word). That R&G language has been around for a long time in the definition. It means a couple of things. In some, full-blown Platformer aspects (which deserve both tags under this system). Other times, it means the use of platform-type mechanics, normally to help navigate enemy fire. Alien Hominid is an example of a game I'd consider R&G but not Platformer, as the environment is not much of an antagonist in that game but there are plenty of platform objects to exploit to help you stay safe from the enemies and manage their flow.

3) I don't need a list of R&G + Platformer (I like lists when a major change to a definition has been made to simplify things but outside of that I find the established system more helpful). Just bear in mind, if the desire is to apply Platformer, the game will be run through the Platformer definition directly, and if it lacks those elements the R&G tag will carry no extra weight in arguing the game's case. If the game isn't obstacle-course like, or the environment is not the primary antagonist, the game will not get the tag. The R&G platforming elements is far more loose of a concept than what the current Platformer definition is (which as many of you know went through some dramatic changes based off community feedback a few months past).