Game Discussion: Assassin's Creed Origins Forum

Assassin's Creed Origins Multi-Genre Discussion

AuthorMessage
Posted on 13 November 17 at 17:36
Please use this thread to discuss this game's classification under the multi-genre system.

If you disagree with the current genres, please click the "Add genre disagreement" button below.
Posted on 13 November 17 at 17:37
Eurydace has registered their disagreement about the genres applied to this game
This is an RPG:

- Quests
- Story-driven
- XP
- Loot
- Enemies have levels
- Character development through talents

Yup.
TheMaize
807,774
TheMaize
Posted on 13 November 17 at 18:14
I concur. Action-RPG, open world, stealth
Za Pantsupati
265,496
Za Pantsupati
Posted on 14 November 17 at 00:35
Agreed! Remove "Action-Adventure" and replace it with "Action-RPG" and it should be good.
misfit119
737,444
misfit119
Posted on 15 November 17 at 06:50, Edited on 15 November 17 at 06:52 by misfit119
This series has always been Action-Adventure with RPG elements to it. Just because a game has loot or an XP system does not provide it with the RPG tag. Quests and "story driven" could just as easily apply to the Action-adventure tag. XP, levels and character development through talents could apply to any number of games from any number of genres. This isn't a new development - many games have been fusing these together for quite some time, especially those in the A-A genre.

However what would make me agree with adding the Role Playing Game genre tag to this would be if the loot is randomized. I can't find any info on this being the case. But that's something that's pretty particular to the various RPG genres and would definitely qualify the tag in my eyes. That whole "Need a better weapon / armor" mentality is very dungeon crawler RPG in nature.

I've been eyeballing Shadows of War for this very reason. Don't remember Shadows of Mordor well enough to say it would apply there as well but Shadows of War is very much in that vein with the random loot drops. I've even hunted a few captains just in the hopes they'll drop some better equipment.
Looking to boost any MP achievements I don't have for any game I own.
Clever Jake
398,345
Clever Jake
Posted on 15 November 17 at 10:20
This is definitely much more of an RPG than the other members of the series, lot's of side quests and each one different, not just repeat the same 5 events.

Also

"we assumed this path and yes we’ve gone to a much more action RPG philosophy" and "most definitely the action RPG element of the game is a natural step for AC to go, and we should keep that going going forward" - Assassin’s Creed Origins Director Ashraf Ismail
Za Pantsupati
265,496
Za Pantsupati
Posted on 15 November 17 at 18:47
misfit119 said:
This series has always been Action-Adventure with RPG elements to it. Just because a game has loot or an XP system does not provide it with the RPG tag. Quests and "story driven" could just as easily apply to the Action-adventure tag. XP, levels and character development through talents could apply to any number of games from any number of genres. This isn't a new development - many games have been fusing these together for quite some time, especially those in the A-A genre.
I don't think anyone is really debating that per se, but the depth and prevalence of the elements in this specific AC game is clearly much more than any previous game in the series. It's a fine line between "having RPG elements" to basically being an RPG, but I see that happening here.
Eurydace
438,162
Eurydace
Posted on 15 November 17 at 19:35, Edited on 15 November 17 at 19:36 by Eurydace
The loot is random, but even if it wasn’t, this would be an RPG I think. It is much different than previous RPGs. It’s basically The Witcher lite. If Witcher 3 is, this is.
misfit119
737,444
misfit119
Posted on 16 November 17 at 23:15, Edited on 16 November 17 at 23:16 by misfit119
I wasn't being very clear in my post since it was typed in 10 minute bursts over about two hours. Let's try again.

Za Pantsupati said:
It's a fine line between "having RPG elements" to basically being an RPG, but I see that happening here.
I always try to remain on the side of "it's the same until proven otherwise" when it comes to adding out of genre stuff like this since people can get... wacky about genre additions. The mentality of "Do you level up? It's an RPG!" is intensely common at times. As a member of the Genre Team I always err on the side of it remains the same until someone can explain otherwise if I haven't played the game personally.

Eurydace said:
The loot is random, but even if it wasn’t, this would be an RPG I think. It is much different than previous RPGs. It’s basically The Witcher lite. If Witcher 3 is, this is.
More what I was trying to ask if this is something where the loot is like... actual stuff. In most AA games, like the previous AC games, you can kill enemies to get loot. But it's always stuff like health ups, money or whatever weapons they were carrying. If this has loot, as in actual equipment and such, then I could support that part of the argument.

But telling me that something is "The Witcher lite" doesn't say anything about the game. The Witcher is more than a series of checkmarks on a list. It's how all of those parts come together and how the game plays out. I haven't played AC:O so I can't just agree or disagree, I need to stay neutral on the issue until an argument gives me a reason to agree with the changes.

So Saying "There are quests and it's story driven" doesn't tell me anything. Are there choices? Is the story interactive in some fashion? Is there some actual roleplaying element to the game?Saying that you "level up and that there's XP" also means little. Games like FUSE have levels and XP and even give you skill points when you level up. However these have a very minor effect on the actual game and thus don't really warrant the inclusion. Are we talking about actual impact on the game, like who new abilities / uses for your abilities? Or are these simply minor boosts to what's already there like most of FUSE's upgrades?

More input! smile

Clever Jake said:
This is definitely much more of an RPG than the other members of the series, lot's of side quests and each one different, not just repeat the same 5 events.
In fairness the side quests have gotten a lot more involved since around the Unity and Syndicate, especially Syndicate. So I'm kind of leery of using that as a measuring bar. Thanks for the quote though. It does mean that they were intending this direction and it's not just a small blip in the mechanics.

Regardless, if this is indeed the case then the genres would be Action-Adventure, Open World, Stealth, Roleplaying. Since it's a modifier to how the game is played and not a core component, like in something like Diablo or Path of Exile, it would fall into the loot based, semi-RPG's like Borderlands or Destiny who just add it on as another genre.
Looking to boost any MP achievements I don't have for any game I own.
Eurydace
438,162
Eurydace
Posted on 17 November 17 at 00:48
When I say Witcher Lite, I mean it. It’s truing it’s best to copy everything about it. It should have the same genres as Witcher 3. The only difference is it has Dark Souls combat.

AA is not appropriate.
Eurydace
438,162
Eurydace
Posted on 17 November 17 at 02:24
misfit119 said:
So Saying "There are quests and it's story driven" doesn't tell me anything. Are there choices? Is the story interactive in some fashion? Is there some actual roleplaying element to the game?Saying that you "level up and that there's XP" also means little. Games like FUSE have levels and XP and even give you skill points when you level up. However these have a very minor effect on the actual game and thus don't really warrant the inclusion. Are we talking about actual impact on the game, like who new abilities / uses for your abilities? Or are these simply minor boosts to what's already there like most of FUSE's upgrades?
The quests are story driven in the same way Witcher's are. Witcher's choices don't make it an RPG. I can easily pick out 20 indisputable RPGs that have no story choices whatsoever. I don't think that should be held as a knock against it in any way.

Leveling up doesn't increase stats, but it does give you talent points that will upgrade your abilities and are required to progress the story as you need to level up to access the story. That matches the definition.

As for equipment, it is randomized mostly (beyond a few story pieces of gear).
Dang3R Gaming
905,530
Dang3R Gaming
Posted on 17 November 17 at 02:26
Eurydace said:
misfit119 said:
So Saying "There are quests and it's story driven" doesn't tell me anything. Are there choices? Is the story interactive in some fashion? Is there some actual roleplaying element to the game?Saying that you "level up and that there's XP" also means little. Games like FUSE have levels and XP and even give you skill points when you level up. However these have a very minor effect on the actual game and thus don't really warrant the inclusion. Are we talking about actual impact on the game, like who new abilities / uses for your abilities? Or are these simply minor boosts to what's already there like most of FUSE's upgrades?
The quests are story driven in the same way Witcher's are. Witcher's choices don't make it an RPG. I can easily pick out 20 indisputable RPGs that have no story choices whatsoever. I don't think that should be held as a knock against it in any way.

Leveling up doesn't increase stats, but it does give you talent points that will upgrade your abilities and are required to progress the story as you need to level up to access the story. That matches the definition.

As for equipment, it is randomized mostly (beyond a few story pieces of gear).
Actually levelling somewhat increases stats, you gain more base health and damage when you level up. Any loot is randomised besides set quest rewards essentially, and some gear that is constant (aka the hidden blade, breastplate etc.) can be upgraded and improved via crafting.
TheMaize
807,774
TheMaize
Posted on 18 November 17 at 06:41, Edited on 18 November 17 at 07:38 by TheMaize
Misfit...while you say eurydace is argueing wrong by saying it plays exactly like another game. You are wrongly doing the same.

This game does NOT play like ANY previous AC game.
This is a reboot where every mechanic is removed or changed. And new are added.
Its not just "a new entry to the series" this game is something entirely different.

I would really suggest you to try the game (you, and everyone else, as this is easily GOTY)

Videos here, for this particular game, just wont cut it.
I watched all of them before starting the game, and still expected "AC"
But what you really get is witcher meets far cry primal.

Its like the devs did a brainstorm....decided what worked in AC, and what worked in other AAA GOTYS from the last 4 years...wrote it on little notes, crumbled them together, put them in a hat, and drew 10 at random
misfit119
737,444
misfit119
Posted on 18 November 17 at 08:10, Edited on 18 November 17 at 08:11 by misfit119
TheMaize said:
Misfit...while you say eurydace is argueing wrong by saying it plays exactly like another game. You are wrongly doing the same.
The point I'm trying to make is that he's not doing anything to convince me, or the team, to add this genre. If you tell me "It's an RPG because of these reasons" and I tell you that those reasons could apply to other Action-Adventure games, the point is that I'm looking for information that couldn't apply to other games of this genre. I'm not going to watch hours of video to find the evidence of this and I haven't played it so I can't just go "Oh, okay" and agree with a change. There is no burden for me to prove it's the exact same since I'm not arguing for a change. If you want a change we need more than a list of generic evidence.

As for playing it, I'd love to. But I'm waiting for the next TA playlist to actually star it. But until I do I need more than "It's The Witcher 3 lite" to justify a genre change like this.

So far the most compelling arguments I've seen are:
Leveling up increases stats. This is more than just a same old same old mechanic like you'd get in FUSE.
Loot uses an actual loot system and not just the same stuff the previous games did (dropped weapon and loot them for money and consumables)
Looking to boost any MP achievements I don't have for any game I own.
wolfie80241
260,415
wolfie80241
Posted on 18 November 17 at 11:22
AC:Origins plays like every other popular RPG I have every liked that was a AAA title. IMO one of the best games to come out in a while. Going back in forth over its genre takes away from the point that is a beautiful game that a player can get lost in. It feels closest in nature to The Wild hunt to me personally with the best aspects of ubisoft recent open world games (ghost recon/watch dogs 2). It is also the most innovative AC game since black flag and near the top of the AC catalogue.
Wolfie
Za Pantsupati
265,496
Za Pantsupati
Posted on 18 November 17 at 12:31, Edited on 18 November 17 at 12:33 by Za Pantsupati
Jesus, this is the Dust: An Elysian Tail discussion all over again. People who know RPGs and people who have played the game are laying out the exact reasons it's an RPG, and someone is just stuffing their fingers in their ears. But now there's no excuse that it "fits a different genre better."

We've laid out all the reasons it's an RPG. Just because those things sometimes bleed into games that aren't RPGs, because RPG mechanics show up in lots of things these days, doesn't discredit that they are RPG mechanics, and having ALL of them in one game = RPG.

If all you've seen is "generic evidence" and two examples of RPG mechanics, you've missed a lot in this discussion. Can we please have some other members of the genre team join and re-read everything? Isn't Allgorhythm on the team now? Is Clown still a member? Zorinth has become much better at this than he was in the beginning as well. I'd love to see all their input.

Also, saying "this game is exactly like this other game" is perfectly fine evidence. We shouldn't then need to lay out every single design mechanic. If you believe Witcher is an RPG, and you believe the people in the thread who have played AC:O saying it is exactly like Witcher, then you should agree it's an RPG as well.
misfit119
737,444
misfit119
Posted on 18 November 17 at 14:45
Za Pantsupati said:
Jesus, this is the Dust: An Elysian Tail discussion all over again. People who know RPGs and people who have played the game are laying out the exact reasons it's an RPG, and someone is just stuffing their fingers in their ears. But now there's no excuse that it "fits a different genre better."
You're free to get your knickers out of the twist that they're in. Another member has chimed in behind the scenes and hasn't seen anything to change our position to leave it as is. I'm trying to explain how we can work this out when dealing with a team of people that hasn't played the game and thus need information if they're going to agree to a change from the vote. But please, feel free to whine and accuse instead of contributing. It's productive.

Za Pantsupati said:
Also, saying "this game is exactly like this other game" is perfectly fine evidence. We shouldn't then need to lay out every single design mechanic. If you believe Witcher is an RPG, and you believe the people in the thread who have played AC:O saying it is exactly like Witcher, then you should agree it's an RPG as well.
No, that's not perfectly fine evidence. Let's use this threads example: If someone says "This plays exactly like The Witcher" does that mean there's alchemy? That you use two swords to fight different foes? That you're a sterile monster hunter? That you use sign magic? I know enough to know that no, you don't. So if you say it's "Like The Witcher" you're not actually saying anything useful. There have to be some sort of examples as to how this connection is made beyond "It feels similar." Otherwise we're going to be getting complaints from the non-RPG crowd down the road and have no idea why we added the genre beyond some people's feelings.

Eurydace said:
The quests are story driven in the same way Witcher's are. Witcher's choices don't make it an RPG. I can easily pick out 20 indisputable RPGs that have no story choices whatsoever. I don't think that should be held as a knock against it in any way.
Sorry, I missed this on my first response. Not ignoring you!

I wasn't saying "It's not an RPG if you don't get choices" but more in the way that saying "It's story driven like The Witcher" isn't telling me enough to go on. This means nothing new since all of the AC games have story driven narratives, including side quests. So I'm not quite sure what that's actually saying.
Looking to boost any MP achievements I don't have for any game I own.
Dang3R Gaming
905,530
Dang3R Gaming
Posted on 18 November 17 at 15:38
I just want to start by saying, I don't really follow the RPG genre much, and don't know specifics of everything that can be used to define one. Below I'm pretty much going to recap entire systems in the game that I hope can help the decision. I personally do believe this fits into the genre, as the game has been overhauled completely compared to the previous games in the series, and works in a very different way.

It's all very different in this game compared to the others. There wasn't any proper XP system in the old games that really meant anything. Most story quests aren't accessible until you level up enough to be able to handle them for example, whilst the old games you could just storm through. There weren't any discernible skill tree's either, whilst Origins has 3 separate trees, allowing you to centre yourself around one playstyle if you choose to.

When it comes to loot, it is all unique, enemies do not drop what they are carrying, most don't drop anything of use besides Captains and Commanders. These will drop rarer loot, but again, it is entirely random what they drop, the same with the chests, none of them have set loot. The only set loot in the game is that which relates to quests or the Phylakes/War Elephants. You can go back to upgrade old weapons to your current level if you like the stats they use, and there is a mini-crafting system of sorts for your base gear that is constant (Hidden Blade, Bracer (for ranged damage), Breastplate etc.) That requires gathering materials through hunting, dismantling old gear, raiding transports and raiding enemy encampments (this is for one of the 2 rare crafting materials that are only in chests).

Levelling up increases base health and damage, more being added by what you have equipped of course. Of course it also gives you an ability point to put into any tree you desire (ability points can be gained in 2 other ways, which are based on completing objectives in 2 types of locations that you will find when exploring the map (for example one way is completing war elephant camps)).

The combat system (I don't know if this is anything remotely important to an RPG, more just how this game is different from the previous instalments in the series) works very differently from the older games. Dodging is as far as I can remember, a new mechanic, as well as being able to easily pull out a bow mid combat and shoot someone. Older games would just have you hold Y to use the hidden gun for example.

Onto the abilities themselves, they do impact how you play. For example the tree revolving around the bow. Upgrading skills can change how your different bow types function, such as less dispersion of arrows, charging the shots quicker, being able to control a predator bow's arrow, giving a slow motion effect if you aim after jumping from a ledge etc. The same goes for the Melee tree, it changes how your overpower attack works, actually giving you combos you can perform, such as shield bashes, a light chain attack, throwing a weapon after an overpower attack/a followup combo onto the same or a different target after performing an overpower attack.

This is all I can think of off the top of my head. If there any specific things you actually want clarification on that I haven't mentioned here that are specific to an RPG game and might sway the decision if it's present, then feel free to ask and I'll say whether or not it's present and what role it plays in the game.
Za Pantsupati
265,496
Za Pantsupati
Posted on 18 November 17 at 16:04, Edited on 18 November 17 at 16:05 by Za Pantsupati
misfit119 said:
No, that's not perfectly fine evidence. Let's use this threads example: If someone says "This plays exactly like The Witcher" does that mean there's alchemy? That you use two swords to fight different foes? That you're a sterile monster hunter? That you use sign magic? I know enough to know that no, you don't. So if you say it's "Like The Witcher" you're not actually saying anything useful. There have to be some sort of examples as to how this connection is made beyond "It feels similar." Otherwise we're going to be getting complaints from the non-RPG crowd down the road and have no idea why we added the genre beyond some people's feelings.
Now you're just being obtuse for the sake of it. You know what we meant. I can describe Marvel Heroes Omega as "Diablo with a Marvel skin" and that's all I need to say. They're the same game, despite some minor differences. Those minor difference aren't worth mentioning, because they won't change the outcome of what genre it is. Same situation here.

I'll let this play out and hope other staff members step in. I went though this before with Dust, and I'm not interested in a pissing match with you. Thanks to everyone who provided more detailed information and stayed calmer than myself, hopefully it will be enough.
Zonrith1
551,874
Zonrith1
Posted on 18 November 17 at 16:20
I've had a work conference over the past week and so my time to review threads has been relatively limited. So, a few things:

First, because of this ongoing discussion I've put off applying the community vote. Much like this thread, the only conflict is Action-Adventure and A-RPG. Both received high votes (the two highest, A-A being the most), and we don't really pair RPG with A-A (and no one here has asked that, so it's probably obvious). Everything else like Stealth that is PR tagged is a given to get in (they all had over 50 votes; the only exception was Adventure which is clearly misapplied because there are Action elements to the game).

I've not played this, I don't plan to play it, and you can't make me play it. wink

The team is currently four people (Allg, Misfit, Mario, and me). In the case of a tie the status quo would win (in this case, that would be A-A, as it has the most votes of anything in the community vote [104 versus A-RPG's 83 if you'd like the specifics]).

As a reminder, submissions are best served when evidence is cited. If you think videos won't show what you mean, reviews and analysis of a game can be helpful (yes, different sites use different definitions, but an objective listing of the game's features is always helpful). Some of you have provided a lot of depth in your arguments, but I wanted to note this as something to keep in mind for the future (it is not the Genre Team's job to open an investigation when a disagreement arrives... the submissions need to convince us of cause, so details details details!).

Okay, that's all the fluff, I'm sure people want my stance. I am going to support Action-RPG in place of Action-Adventure. I think it's an edge case, but this is why:
1) Leveling system
2) Tiered loot with upgrade options
3) Skill tree that reflects traditional class-based concepts (though not applied in a traditional manner)
4) Crafting system
5) Extensive storytelling element

As such, I think this meets our RPG definition of storytelling and checks a lot of boxes in the character development side. I do think it is an edge case (Shadow of War we have as A-A, and it has a leveling system and tiered loot, but why I fall on the other side of the A-RPG/A-A line with that game is I think the skill tree is more just pick-what-order-you-want-stuff rather than really reflecting different class concepts, the story is a minor part of the overall game [and sucks, but that's just subjective whining on my part], the leveling is really just about awarding more skill points for the skill tree and nothing more, and a few other nit-picks).

So my vote is in favor of A-RPG, with the removal of A-A. I don't think either answer is truly wrong or right; this is in a grey area, and these are just genres. I'd prefer to see people get less worked up if and when things don't go their way on them (it's not like this game fails to meet the A-A definition... it does meet it). Misfit did a good job explaining the level of skepticism we go in when considering a "main line" game's genre change from what we've seen in the past (and it does happen, but we try to be careful when it comes up).
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